Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

There have been too many crashes lately, and the roads haven't really started getting horrible yet, so it's going to get worse. A fair few of those recent crashes have been directly attributed to misuse of the front brake! When it comes to your front brake YOU MUST TEACH your brain to react in a certain way. Instinctive human reactions have no place being anywhere near your front brake lever. You NEED TO OVER-RIDE YOUR INSTINCT!

So, I don't really care if this thread is teaching granny to suck eggs, and as much as many of you probably think I'm a barsteward, I do have a heart and I don't like to see people getting hurt, so I'm going to teach granny to suck, suck, suck!!! :)


This thread isn't for the "I'm Valentino and I could out-brake an ABS bike" crowd anyway, if you already think your a braking god, this is not the thread for you or your comments.



In the same way you instinctively put your hands out when you fall, there are two very common scenarios where instinct lands you in the sh!t.

1. Emergency braking panic - you panic and grab the front brake lever and immediately lock the front wheel

2. Mid-corner panic - you think your not going to make it round a corner at the speed you are travelling, so you brake

so.....

1. Emergency Braking. You need to TRAIN YOUR BRAIN to take control of your fingers in a panic situation. Find an empty car park and practice, practice, practice. Imagine the panic and treat each practice as if it were an emergency. Having a friend give you a signal at a random point, to tell you when to stop is a help. TRAIN YOUR BRAIN in an emergency stop panic situation to tell your fingers DON'T GRAB, SQUEEZE!. Squeeze gently, don't snatch or grab, gently at first until weight has transferred to the front and you feel the front tyre is squashing into the tarmac, then squeeze hard.

2. Corner Panic. You need to TRAIN YOUR BRAIN to control your fingers, your throttle, your countersteer pressure, and your body position. DON'T BRAKE, LEAN!. I'm not going to suggest you should practice this, because it could so easily end up in you lowsiding your bike, but it can be practiced in relative saftey in a car park by marking out a roundabout in chalk, and I'll leave the rest to your imagination.

But the theory is this, if you find yourself starting to panic because you are not going to make a corner, take control of that panic and think! Lean further, countersteer harder, give the throttle a tiny twist more, pull the bike down into the lean with your outside knee if you need to. Expect something on the bike, or your foot, or your inside knee to touch tarmac, and don't be surprised and let it disturb you if it does. It's better to lowside the bike and crash having tried to make the corner, than to crash because you panic'ed and tried to abort. You'd be surprised what the bike and your tyres can do.

The over-riding message in this thread, and it's something that EVERY RIDER MUST LEARN is

TRAIN YOUR BRAIN

You must train your brain to maintain composure and control in a panic situation, so you react how you need to react on a motorcycle, not how instinct is telling you to react. It not an easy thing to do, when adrenaline suddenly rushes round your body, your heart beats faster, and your brain goes "OH F*#K!", but as a motorcycle rider, you MUST learn how to do it. It doesn't matter how many years you've been riding, if you haven't got this drilled into your skull, you are susceptible to this type of crash when the sh!t hits the fan.

If anyone thinks any part of this isn't clear, or could have been explained better, please feel free to chip in.

If anyone can post up any reading, youtube videos, etc, which we can see 'here and now' on the internet, which helps explain this, please do so.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Whilst I understand and agree with the sentiments....PMSL!

TRAIN YOUR BRAIN! That reads like one of those cheesy american infomercial things with the amount of times you said "TRAIN YOUR BRAIN."

But yeh. Do what he says.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Moved to bike talk so it doesnt get lost amongst the IB.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

:lol:

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

yup, i've had a few occasions going into the corner, think cack not going to make it, or faster than I would normally go, so brake then feel the bike start to come up/run wide so come off the brakes and make it round, pheeww :D
It's the coming off the anchors that's the hard part, and as YC has said in the past, when you do brake, brake hard once you have transfered the weight to the front of the bike that is.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

LOL yep, i thought the same, ill remember this post for a long time, ill be quoting the slogan randomly.

#updates signature

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Yep, learning to make sure you're not in too high a gear going round that corner so you can use the engine braking wisely really makes a difference. I've lost count of the number of times I've had that "oh sh%&*" moment only to thank my reactions for rolling off the throttle and leaning over more. Thankfully I've built this awareness up through my 125 experience, and it's so much easier to apply to the SV with it being so much more stable when leaning - as I've found anyway.

We have a few "fun" corners round our way, I've found just trundling around them at 30 mph while leaning as far over as I dare really helped me get to grips with just how forgiving the SV can be and I don't get scared so much if I do take that corner a bit wider than perhaps I'd have liked because I know I can lean more and she'll sail round :)

Good thread btw Ralph :cool:

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Sorry Bluefishman, just to clarify, the structure of your post made it confusing

Is talking about panic in a corner

Is talking about emergency braking in a straight line, and has nothing to do with cornering.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

More :lol: 's

At least people will remember it! Mission accomplished :D

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

I'm at the other end of the scale sometimes. I don't brake enough for fear of locking up. Like a week or so ago I was going along a fast straight on a single lane country road and suddenly noticed the road was flooded up ahead and had to brake quite quick to stop in time. But because the road was damp nearer the flooded bit I was thinking about that and how it might be slippy.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

I locked up my rear going into a tightish left hander in France, it was after a large series of similar bends in succession except this one was slightly tighter, more downhill and had a large wall right next to it, bottom line is I target fixated on the wall ( i had already taken similar corners at the same speeds easily ) and grabbed the brakes a bit, once the rear was unloaded, the rear locked, luckily I have my brain programmed to come off the brakes immediately if they lock as it's happened loads of times in the past in cars and on bikes.

I've learnt a lot in France about cornering and more importantly getting set up beforehand, it's also easy on a twisty stretch to get out of shape 3-4 corners earlier which can still affect your lines.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

I've learnt the most important thing about cornering too, and that's SLOW DOWN! :lol:

Don't do them as fast as you could do them, leave yourself a margin for error, some grip in reserve, and so never make it a panic situation in the first place.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Good advice. I found 'A twist of the Wrist volume 2' to be a great help. And no it's not a wank manual! :(

It talks through all the 'Survival Reactions' and how to deny them. However, I have found reading is one thing, actually being able to control them is another.

Well worth a read though...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Twist-Wrist-.../dp/0965045021

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Don't see why anyone could have a problem with this thread?

I'd had a lockup at the last corner, before I parted company with the group last week (part of the reason I decided to come home - the other being that I'd been riding terribly all day). Think I scared Davenumbers as I headed towards him(!)

Always good to have a reminder like this.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

I've read some of that Twistywrist book, it's really good. But as you say, no amount of reading can make up for experience on the road. It certainly helps get your head in the right mindset though :D

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Tbh Col, although unpopular with most on here I'm sure, this is more important than the things you mentioned in your op.

Even if you go round the corner with ease and well within your skill level, we can't control what's stopped or in our path when we get round, this is where going a bit slower will help with reaction times and stopping distances IMO.

If you can see through the corner then fair enough you can go a bit faster.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Me and Danf were discussing similar the other day, we both lead in France, some days I felt really on it and rode quicker, other days I felt 'off' it and backed off a bit, the one day I was flying and dan just didn't feel right so didn't try to stay up my trumpet.
Other days it was in reverse, he was flying and I didn't feel as confident so rolled back a bit.
If we are feeling like it's not working for us one day, don't try and keep up with other riders, just reel it in a bit and it might come good after a while instead of ending badly.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Practice practice practice.

Physical preparations, the muscle memory of how to hold the bike properly is important, if you're tense it won't handle right and you'll panic. Develop the muscle memory of how to stop bloody hard, PRACTICE!

Mental preparations, the brain training, go through every scenario in your head. Have predefined responses to them. Go through them after every ride, what happened, what would you have done if x had happened at y point. Etc. Think about what you do at every stage. (not while riding...)


The brain is a bloody complicated thing and it's designed for having a good scrap with a sabre toothed tiger over bits of dead mammoth. This does not translate well to strapping yourself to a missile and firing yourself through the countryside. Adrenaline (and hence panic...) response is NOT your friend. Half of the brain training is realising that fear is a completely normal feeling, so you don't get that adrenal dump and freeze up.

Both actually, if you need to brake for a corner you need to (your brain needs to let you...) be decisive. Brake THEN corner. Maybe trail brake in if you want but don't try to do serious braking and cornering at the same time or you'll come a cropper.

Train your brain to act in an effective and decisive way. It's FAR better to lowside from running out of ground clearance than to dither your way, upright, into a hedge while having a dilemma about what to do. If in doubt bang the f***er over and hope for the best!

Well, yes, you DO control what's in your path when you go round the corner as if you do the job right you MAKE SURE your stopping distance is in sight at all times. It is rule #1.

If you have gone round a corner and found a cow sat there or something you are obviously way beyond your observational limits (while remaining within your technical skills 'cos you made it round there)






APOLOGY:
I find the mentality of riding and the physics of riding absolutely fascinating so I'm a bit of a geek. If you don't like it go read someone else's ramblings!

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Sorry but that is bs

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Ok, it is BS. Consider these 2 options;

• Go round a corner remaining within observational limits. See cow in road. Execute emergency stop. Swear at cow.
• Go round a corner beyond observational limits. See cow in road. Hit cow.

Which one do you think is sensible?
"Always make sure you can stop in the distance you can see to be clear" is pretty much as cast-iron self-preservation common sense you will ever see.

How many crashes are there where a biker "comes round a corner to find a car in his path". Why was he going round too fast to stop or give the car chance to see him? Might as well ride at night with your feckin lights off!

If you corner beyond your observational limits you've committed to one path that you HOPE is correct. It's pure LUCK whether there is a cow or a fallen tree in that path or not because you've removed the safety margin and given up your control over the situation.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

I'm not saying the theory is bs. But I seriously doubt you or most people actually ride like that. It's not possible while making decent progress

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

It's perfectly possible. Most of the time I do ride like that. A lot of police types reckon to ride like that and I'd mostly believe them, and it's a fine standard to aim for!

Sometimes I don't, when in a mood to make completely indecent progress. I call that riding like a c*** and it's very enjoyable. But I don't make a habit of it because it's riding on your luck not your skill.

But we're talking about safe riding here, so I stick with what I said. You can go very fast without breaking that rule too.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

if you obey yc's rule no 1, you should never have an accident, as bikers most of us don't so we do ;)

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Mods Sticky?

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

I'm going to open a new school


The DB riding club......with the moto
Its so slow, its actually faster than fast! Safety to speed up your reactions.





#I here the celestial laughter from high above :lol:#

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

There is a third option

[*]Go round a corner beyond observational limits. See cow in road. Choose your escape route, either to left of or right of cow.

Again it's brain training, teaching yourself not to panic and target fixate on the cow, and brake for all your worth whilst heading straight towards it.

But no, you can't rely on there being an escape route, so you are still riding on luck.

Riding on luck does happen, even when not riding like a penis, there are some roads near me that are 60mph limits and carry 60mph traffic, but the road is narrow, the hedges are high, and there are long bends making 90 degree direction changes, so you're in a lean and can't brake hard for 2-4 seconds at a time (I'll try to find a google streetfu). You'd need to be doing less than 30mph to stop before your limit point.

If you are chasing your limit point (as police riders often do) most of the time you can't stop in the distance you can see to be clear. I do understand what Darren means. The two concepts are a bit contradictory.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

You had better explain the limit point now Ralph, for the benifit of those that don't know, or need reminding.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

I understand the gist of what you're saying YC, but how many, you and me, included can say they know what is around every bend ?

It's immaterial how fast, or slow, a rider takes a corner if there is something unexpected there.

The point, afaic, about this thread is learning braking techniques when you meet the unexpected.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

gah,,,,,sorry lads, if you ride like a d1ck, yer gonna die.

Simple.


Sooner folk up their riding standards than concentrating on flippin analysis the better. This is the thing that gets folk falling off. Too much analysis on forums,
not enough 'on your own' learning.


PUURRRRllllllleeeese, just bloody ride for yourself instead of thinking online experts will help you to imortality.


If anyones offended TOuGH.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Knowing what the bike can do is an important part, having trust within the bike to do what you ask of it. I have been suprised a few times at what the SV is capable of when asked to do so. Having trust and faith within your ability and judgement is also needed, knowing the boundaries of skill and talent with the current riding scenario.
Being decisive and knowing what you want to do is the key. Stick to your initial decision and carry it out safely and according to how you plan it. From the thinking of the manouvre to the execution: thinking distance, braking distance, stopping, bike control and all the other factors that comes into it.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Its all been covered, so I wont elaborate any more. Just to add, if I may.

If you are reading the road correctly, you should have your speed set so that you drive the bike through and out of the corner, we should remove the need for panic braking in the first place. Also you'll be surprised just how fast you can actually corner. Many times I've thought I wasnt going to make a corner, let the brakes off turned in, leaned the bike over and then used the throttle to fire it out once the vanishing point started to do just that and got round.

Its a bit like when Yoda says to Luke Skywalker.

"Do or do not, there is no try"

I.e. if you think you are going to fall off or crash, in that situation you probably will, a bit of positive thinking never hurt anybody, best way of avoiding an accident is to not put yourself into the position of having one in the first place. But theres definately sense in practising braking techniques as -Ralph- is suggesting IMHO and when I passed my CBT my dad advised me to ride along a gravelly road and practise braking on a loose surface so I could feel what the bike was doing / how it was behaving. I also think learning to ride on off road on grass helped me alot as well. I definately noticed how much smoother I was after the moto cross off road day I did a while ago made me on tarmac. But I'm wandering off on a tangent now...

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

There are many ways of learning DB. One way is to read and absorb information from someone with more knowledge and experience than oneself and then go and put it into practise.
This could well be the reason that a large number of coppers and racers are such good riders. They didn't all learn to ride that well by farting about on two wheels in an unstructured fashion.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

I've been on tons of rideouts and watched almost everybody go round tight corners at speed where they had no way of stopping in the distance they can see, great in theory, just isn't practical on a lot of hilly tight corners.

I've seen riders on here fly round blind corners and would have no chance of stopping if there was something immediately in their path.

I was using my satnav to read corners for me in france as it was impossible to read them normally or you'd go round them at 20 mph, i would've had no chance of stopping on some of them had something been in my path, as it happens I knew the roads generally were empty so risk was low.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

You're telling me thinking about what you're doing and how you do things makes you fall off? Are you mental?

I would certainly agree with the sentiment "go ride the bike" but thinking about and discussing scenarios and actions is a good thing. If people don't think then people will follow fast people, and go fast without knowing why or the logic of where it is safe to do so.

If you don't like analysis and discussion, you're in the wrong thread.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Nobody knows what's round every bend. But to avoid falling off you give yourself enough safety margin to be able to account for what you don't know.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Not simple. You can ride like a d1ck if you know you're within your limits. You can also ride like a sensible Mr Buttercup and still die. You can cross the road dressed like a flourescent banana and still die :smt102

How does it automatically equate to people falling off, are they reading from their iphones while riding? I think not. Every moment on the road is a learning curve and if remembering just one thing read on this forum helps you adjust your riding style to one safer then these threads have made the difference.

I am most fortunate to have YC, I often come home after a ride back from work or whatever with a query about riding, we natter about it and cross examine what's gone on, why I reacted the way I did, how it affected the bike, how it could have affected it, how I could have prevented/improved etc. I very much enjoy these conversations, they make me think about my riding in a way I probably wouldn't have a chance to on my own. And yes, no amount of reading can equate to experience but if you're prepared to learn and absorb the information as best you can then you can only ever improve your safety and knowledge of the road. These threads will help towards providing that, I can guarantee it. I know I have already.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

I agree with this. When i go out riding with my Dad, when he's going for it i can't keep up. Not for lack of power (by much) by experience and skill. Your skill level plays a huge part in how you can read, asses and attack a road. You gain this by riding on your own and with better riders, picking up hints, tips and getting pointers from them. Being able to put them into practice and gaining a benefit from them is what counts.
I also learnt a lot from reading the Police roadcraft books, a worth while read IMO. I am planning to do a days ride out with the Police force, and look into doing an IAM's course too

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

But how does one up ones riding standards if one does not discuss riding techniques. There are many ways of doing this, talking it through on a thread like this is just one way.

There are many others, granted, this is just one, its a valid one all the same IMHO.

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

I didn't know the Queen rode a bike ;)

Re: Brakes! - Train your brain! - Teaching granny to suck eggs!
 

Look at this beggar, and imagine it's summer, the foliage is in full greenery, as are those three trees. You're on a sports bike, and your head is not on a big mast like the google camera, it's a bit lower than the top of that hedge in summer.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=mark...94.99,,0,14.03

The corner itself is doable at 30mph real easy, up to 45 mph I'd say if you were pushing on a bit.

Now look at the corner from the opposite direction and imagine a tractor and trailer coming out of that field entrance and crossing to go down the little lane

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=mark...3,,0,4.58&z=15

Now go back to your view on approach, remember your eyes are at half the height of that camera!

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=mark...94.99,,0,14.03

What speed do you need to be doing to stop if that tractors half way across? You can't see it until you see past the tree stump, and you're at a lean angle when you see it.

I'll give you a clue, from the camera to the drain is about 18-20 ft.

30mph is 44 feet per second!