Motorway speed signs
 

Hi,

This has been bugging me for a while now, and I was hoping someone here may know the answer. It's to do with the new signs installed on the M25 and other motorways (particularly "managed" ones). They look a bit like this:

http://www.theaa.com/resources/image...-sign-440x.jpg

On the M25, there are standard variable speed limit signs above the carriageway which are mandatory speed limits and enforced by cameras. Between the gantries, there are also these signs.

The question is, are these mandatory speed limits or advisory?

Given the red circle, I'm going to assume that they are intended to be mandatory, but I can't find any reference to them in Google. Given that they are not above each lane, and only appear on one side of the road, are they enforceable?

I've had a look through "The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016" and they don't appear to be covered by that. If anyone has a link to the appropriate law, it'd be appreciated.

As an aside, I noticed that pictures of motorway signs seem to have been dropped from the highway code. Maybe it's a move away from being prescriptive towards the intuitive ...

Thanks.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

I'm with you in thinking the red circle means it's an instruction.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

I think you've answered your own question. The mandatory signs with the cameras have the red circle, as does this one. Red circles are usually limits/prohibition signs.


The amber ones, ones on square signs etc are suggested speeds for various hazards, and although not mandatory then ignoring them and having a crash could count against you.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

Perhaps I didn't explain the real question very well - assuming that they are intended to be mandatory, it's too easy to miss them, e.g. if you're passing a lorry.

As I understand it, the legislation requires them to be above lanes (for motorway matrix signs) or on both sides of the road (for normal road-signs).

Has an exception been put in for them somewhere, or won't they be enforced until you pass under the next sign above lanes?

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

if they are between the main gantry signs then i would say that they are repeaters to remind drivers of upcoming hazards and to make appropriate action to avoid the hazard.

technically the speed limit sign is wrong as far as i'm aware all speed limit signs must have a white background.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

I wondered about this as well but I'm not sure it's a reasonable defence. The information is pretty clear.

However my brief eyeballing of this document: http://tsrgd.co.uk/pdf/tsrgd/tsrgd2016.pdf
didn't turn up anything relevant.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

Reading further:

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...egaladvice.pdf

It appears that anything authorized by the Secretary of State is a valid road sign.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

That's just what I was looking for, thanks. My mistake was assuming they were speed signs!

I'd still argue that they can't be seen by everyone on the road, though.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

actually found it. In that last doc, bottom of page 8, point 31.

pdf doesn't let me copy/paste it.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

off topic:

i wonder how long it will be before auto speed restriction devices are fitted to vehicles so when you pass a speed restriction it automatically sets you to that speed.... my prediction is ermm never as there is faaaaarrrrr too much money to be made in fines. i would guess the technology is already here but not being used.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

Modern vehicles can already do that. The Ford Ranger I was looking at has an optional pack that reads speed limit signs and sets a warning accordingly. I'm not sure if it can limit the actual speed - but as it has a speed limiter it's hardly a huge leap.

However it might not read all signs so responsibility rests with the driver.

And as you point out, there's probably no incentive for it in the market.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

I think this is the key - it's the same problem for the future of driverless cars.

If you are in a driverless taxi which is caught speeding, who pays the fine? You? Uber? Or the car manufacturer?

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

I'm sure with driverless cars, as it's a new technology, they'll roll out some newfangled method of communicating the speed limits. Probably something like a nightly update to their mapping software, which contains speed limits. Emergencies will probably have beacons broadcasting speed limits on known frequencies, and possible diversions.

Or no-one will care and they'll just restrict everything to 30mph. I mean if you're not driving, you can be working, right?

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

Um well this is an interesting article.
http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/west-...-legal-4931163

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

Nissan QQ j11 has an option of traffic sigh recognition camera.
It's also linked to the sat nav.
Pulsar has its sat nav linked too .
The nav also can warn of sharp turns.
And everything is linked via CAN.
So it's not a big deal to get auto speed setup.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

Even my Focus has sign recognition built in and I recall seeing a vehicle that prevented speeding based on GPS maps on either old Top Gear or Tomorrow's World at least 25 years ago. My nav unit tells me when it thinks I'm speeding based on map info too so the tech to prevent it is already ancient. Heck, the Focus also has auto braking too and locks up (only at slow speed) if it thinks you're about to hit something. Add that to adaptive cruise control and everything is already available if the law and manufacturers decide to adopt it. Personally I hope they never do in my lifetime!

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

Sir Trev,

That might be the Nissan GTR you are thinking about, I remember on topgear it was limited to 155MPH unless it knew it was on a track (by GPS), then the limiter comes off.

No doubt they could if they wanted to, I hope they never do.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

Firstly, I'd NEVER trust Google with anything that could affect my licence or my wallet!
The sign shown is perfectly legitimate: Lanes 1,2,& 3 are closed, while lane 4 is subject to a limit of 40mph.
Apparently when the limits are reduced, the cameras do not take this into account for one minute, but don't take this as gospel!
The limit+10%+2 is only a guideline from ACPO ( as was ) and any transgression by even 2mph over the limit MAY by punishable, indeed " Motorists face fines for travelling 1MPH above M1 speed limit " according to Bedfordshire'a Police & Crime Commissioner who thought it was a jolly wheeze to increase revenue ( who suggested it 18 months ago - it never happened )

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

There's rumours of a autopilot J11.
Like previous mentioned it's old technology.
J11 can auto park and stop etc it's only the stick shift that would need the gear's selected....

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

I did a speed awareness course this year. Quite a few people on it had been done with just such signs on the M25. The lady sat next to me was doing 67mph when the 60 signs were on. The guy running the course said the 10% +3 should be treated with a lot of caution these days, especially in 30 zones. So 34 in a 30 in Essex will now often get you 3 points or 4 hours of terrible coffee for £100.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

33.5 in a 30 zone in Norwich got me a speed awareness course. As you say LPH, 4 hours of terrible coffee but only £90.

Re: Motorway speed signs
 

Derbyshire used to be terrible for cameras; don't know if it still is. A few years ago I already had 6 points on my licence (Impreza Turbo you see) when I drove through Derbyshire. Got flashed on the Derby bypass and lasered going through a village half an hour later. Paid the laser fine straight away and got another 3 points. Later I got a summons in the post for the bypass speeding offence to go to magistrates court because I already had 9 points on my licence. I wrote back and asked for a copy of the Gatso picture before I went to court but never heard from them again.again.