Law on Police cars speeding and DWDC etc.
 

So as not to derail http://forums.sv650.org/viewtopic.php?p=733634#733634 topic, I wonder if anyone can shed some light on the law regarding speeding police cars not using blue lights and sirens? As I understand it, they are subject to same laws as us in this situation?

Who do we report them to?

how do you make sure they get prosecuted to the same extent as Joe Public? (I don't care if they lose their job too, they knew the risk)

ETC?

This is one area that really undermines public confidence in the traffic laws, when folk see them being broken willy nilly by the police - apparently with impunity.

I think the rules are simple.

A Police, or any Emergency Vehicle must obey the laws of the road, in the same way we all have to. The exception for this is when they are on an Emergency call, and are using sirens and lights appropriately. If it's late at night, and the traffic is light, it might be acceptable for no siren to be used - but lights must still be flashing.

I recall a case a few year ago, where an Ambulance was flashed by a speed camera. To avoid prosecution they had to prove that it was on en route to a logged emergency. The Police should be no different.

I've asked Police to move their vehicles before, once for parking on a double-yellow line and going shopping, and another time for parking on the zig-zag lines by a pedestrian crossing - pointing out to the officers that not only were they causing an impassable obstruction for other traffic, but they were also reducing visibility for pedestrians trying to cross the road. I didn't get arrested on either occassion, and the vehicles were duly moved.

By and large, traffic cops seem very good. It's more "normal" police in cars that are a problem/driven badly. Just out of interest, do normal police have any additional driving training above what joe public has?

I would think that they do- they also have to answer emergency calls and should be trained to drive safely in such situations.

My brother (a paramedic) told me years ago that he was told the following:

When not on an emergency, you obey the same laws as everyone else.
When on an emergency, you're given speed limit + 10%.

I'm not sure the truth of it, or if it was only applicable whilst on training, or if it's changed since then. But if an ambulance is coming for me or the kids on a 999 call, in a 30 zone, he better be going faster than 33mph as far as I'm concerned!

The way I ride, is that if a police car is going faster than the speed limit, I'll follow him at the same speed, at a safe distance. If they decide to pull me over for that, then I'll argue the toss, mainly as I'll be using them to gauge my road speed & paying attention to other areas of my riding :D

So when they break the law, who do we report it to?

The Force's Chief Constable - it will be delegated down to the right Officer from there.

You may find that you get a fairly useless reply saying "but our officers are trained to drive like that, you're not", as my parents did when they complained about a Plod Car doing 40mph+ in a 30, the same area where my brother got pulled over for doing nearly 40 (the speed limit had recently been changed) a week or so before.

That could just be Bradfords (West Yorkshire) standard answer because they think the speed limit is tosh on that road, but can't be bothered arguing the toss with the council.

Well I would not accept that!

I used to work in a pub not that far outside Llandudno. One of the regulars is a local councillor, and another is a judge ;) I know who to complain to ;)

had a similar issue the other week, A320 south closed M25 J11, bike copper in front, pulls upto talk to the officers who closed the road, then pull off, tanked down the dual carriageway 20+ mph faster than the NSL (which I was doing)

I did wonder whether I should have reported him, for speeding with no flashing lights/siren etc.

Yet another anti-police thread?

All police officers are given training in driving technique, and there are 3 levels to this.
1. Police training without blue light emergency training
2. Police training including fast driving for blue light emergencies
3. Rapid response training for traffic firearms etc.

If you do have complaints, then make them to the relevant body. These will be investigated and served upon the officer regardless of truth.

What job do you do luckypants?

I wouldn't really say this is an anti-police thread.

More a question raised amongst peers for a possible answer.

The way I view this thread, is that Luckypants was merely wondering if it was a crime, and as such, if he had a civil duty to report it, and to whom.

Right, Mike? ;)

Yes, cos it annoys the hell out of me seeing those who are supposed to uphold the law flagrantly disregarding it. He can't expect to be able to nick me for speeding then do it themselves.

not anti-police at all. In the main they do a good job. I was asking if they had to follow rules of road if no blue light (apparently they do) and if they do, who do we report it to if they seen breaking said laws?

By the relevant authority, do you mean the Police complaints people? or the Chief Police officer for the local force as was already suggested? In future when I see this kind of thing I will be reporting it, cos N. Wales has a zero tolerance for the public doing it, so the public should have zero tolerance of the police doing it.

What has my job got to do with this?

*cough* do i sense jelousy? *ahem*



(runs and hides)

Luckypants, would you be so keen to report the many speeding non-police you must see every day, you seem to want to single out speeding police, why not report all speeders, including bikes (as if). I have no bone to pick with the police, they're only human (I think).

Not quite so keen admitedly! It's a case of who polices the police here. although certain antics do get reported. If a copper goes past me in NSL single road at 70, I'm not bothered (as long as it was safe). When one overtakes me in a 40 at 50+ and then I park next to them to fill up with petrol 10 minutes later (so obviously NOT an emergancy), he gets reported.

I do report cases of bad / dangerous driving by joe Public, but I seem to see a lot of speeding police cars at the moment.

Think you may find there is a further exemption for plod.That is if they are following a suspect but do not wish to draw attention to themselves they can exceed the speed limit if safe to do so.

Said this before,but the real culprit here is daft speed limits.We all think how terrible when someone is done at 40 in a 30 limit outside a school,but forget to notice it happened at 0530 on a Sunday morning.Speed limits need to reflect real road conditions and then they will command the respect they should have.

didnt read the whole thread but if they have to obey the same laws.......how do they get away with following you at 97mph for a mile or so with no lights and sirens? if it were against the law they would be prosecuted everytime they do you ... the public ... for speeding!

so no! the laws are to be broken by those that enforce them as far as i can see!

ive heard that ambulances and fire trucks still arnt allowed to exeed the speed limit even when they are on call.

Not correct.They are exempt from many road traffic regs while on a call,but they have to use those exemptions safely.Watch how an emergency vehicle crosses a red traffic light.You could probably walk faster,as the rule of thumb is that if there's a prang its going to be the emergency vehicles fault.There is also an unofficial speed limit,typically 30 above,so if you see an ambulance doing more than a ton down the M25 they are breaking the rules. :shock:

There seem to be 2 separate issues here, neither of which IMO discredit the police :-

1) Of course the police need to be allowed to exceed the speed limits when pursuing law breakers (including, unfortunately, speeding bikes), otherwise no law enforcement would be possible as the law breakers could just speed away.

2) When not in pursuit a policeman is just as entitled to get away with exceeding the speed limits as any other road user, I don't think he should be singled out to be reported any more than you or me. There is a lot of hypocrisy on the road, we all want to be allowed to speed but object to anybody else getting away with it, especially the police.

My understanding, and I stand to be corrected, is that the police are allowed to speed enroute to an incident. If they choose to use their lights/sirens to help them, by getting other vehicles out of the way, then fine, but they are not required to.

Luckypants, how did you know the car wasn't on the way to a shout which then got cancelled, or another unit got there first. They then stopped to fill up before getting on... just a possibility.

Dont forget, their speedometers will be far far more accurate than yours, just because yours says 30mph, and they are still going faster than you doesnt mean that they are always speeding.. they may be doing a TRUE 33mph...

my dad was a fireman, and he use to say, if you were flashed or caught above speed limit, you better pray you were on a call, as youd end up getting the points otherwise... if it were proved you werent ona callout, then it was take the points/fine time...

hhmmmm-
very close to the bone here!-will give you my unbiased police officer view :lol: -police officers are under the same rules of the road as anyone else-but when there responding to an urgent call they have to use there own judgement on how fast/safe it is to proceed-manys a time when I've had to respond to an emergency call with blues and twos going to get called off before we get there- then its back to normal speed-but to joe public standing at the side of the road they don't have any idea what calls came over the radio- as for coppers speeding about willy nilly if you have a valid case that you think they were out of order then yes go and complain about it to your nearest station-its your right and the police are here to serve the public first and foremost and should be held accountable for there actions,BUT makesure your complaining for the right reason.
On the otherhand I still give it plenty when I'm out on the bike but only when I'm away from areas that I'm likely to get tugged-if your gonna speed(no matter by how much or how little) its up to you where and when you do it,we all have a speedo infront of our faces so its up the the rider/driver if there gonna take that risk.If a coppers driving about like a pleb when he's on normal patrol and you see it, then do what you thinks needed,its your call!

husky

At the moment police have an exemption in law with regard to speeding, but they can still be prosecuted for due care, dangerous etc..

As of April the law will change and that exemption will no longer apply, those allowed to exceed the limits must be trained to that standard, i.e blues and two.

The thing is, no normal member of the public will know who is trained to what level, but come April it will force police forces to make sure every response officer is trained to respond..so they will be covered for exceeding the legal limit.

There are reasons on occasion not to have all emergency lighting on, but these are few.

I know all Hampshire police vehicles have a black box, this records all data of the vehicle, speed, location, what lights are on etc etc and allows the controller to deploy the nearest vehicle to an incident. But it can also be used to look into complaints and accidents involving police cars, to prove or disprove fault, blame, malicious allegations etc.

All i can say is that police cars speeding un-necessarily will soon be a thing of the past, big brother is watching not only the Members of public but the police as well.

I am sure your all happy to wait alittle bit longer for police to get to you if you call 999.

Regards

Fraser

My point exactly before. They can happily speed as much as they like (and hopefully some more) when on an emergency call, if coming to me or not.

My personal view on it is that if the police are caught speeding by the police, then they should be treated the same as everyone else. You speed & get caught, you get points (unless you're on an emergency call).

I wouldn't report a biker (or a car driver) for speeding, so why the police? However, dangerous driving is another matter, and that's not so much a report, more a complaint (but that's a technical difference I suppose).

can only speak for ambulances, but i imagine the old bill must be similar

We are exempt from max speed restrictions whilst responding to an emergency call (blue lights and sirens) - however if an accident occurs or we are caught on camera our speed is taken into account and may be deemed "innapropritae for conditions" - so in essence we can be done for driving without due care even when responding to emergency calls. -

what the "approprite speed" for conditions is a very grey area - hence most ambulances wont go more than 20-30 mph over the speed limit.

I have no beef with speeding under blues and sirens. I also understand there are times when the police need to speed without sirens (but still using lights?) to an emergency in a 'stealthy' manner in order to catch the culprits in the act. Of course I expect the emergency services to get to an emergency ASAP. This was not the point of my OP.

My point is that seeing police cars without lights / sirens speeding, parking illegally, on the phone etc undermines my respect for the police an the traffic laws they are apparently allowed to break because none of their colleagues would book them for it. It smacks of one rule for us and one for them. I wanted to know if I see this kind of behavior who should it be reported to? That point was answered.

I park where ever i need to as long as i am not causing an obstruction (unless its impossible to avoid, and normally because i have abandoned the car to go chasing someone) however with regards seatbelts, mobile phones etc I am a true believer of setting examples, i will not do something that i would happily given someone a ticket for, so if i am not going to, or dealing with an incident i will abide by the highway code.

police park on double yellows because its normally a safer bet, if they park in a carpark they have to pay or if its private land we face getting clamped...and trust me that does happen.

ONLY pursuant to your duties I trust? and would you think it reasonable to have the blues on to warn other motorists as your car is parked illegally and they would not expect it to be there?
What I expect of the police and my point was that this does not appear to happen around here.

See my first point.

You seem like a decent copper and I applaud you being willing to post on this subject. I do realise most coppers are like you, but 'one or two spoil it for all'. Would you like to come and work in N. Wales? We could use a few like you!

Everything is done during duty time and if i have had to abandoned the car to chase someone then the lights have normally been left on...thank god for remote central locking lol

All i will say is that without knowing the full circumstances it is hard to comment about incidents involving police, members of the public only see an insight to the police, a snippet of what is going on, police are held accountable for their actions, with black boxes installed in most vehicles now, it will be impossible to get away with anything outside the letter of the law.


I have been part of the SV site for a while now, I am a biker but happen to be a copper as well. its just another informal way the (biking) community of being able to chat openly and frankly with people with different jobs, backgrounds and opinions, one reason why i like this site so much. People seem to forget police are human underneathe that uniform and do occasionally make mistakes. Would I like to work in N Wales? um no thanks....[/b]

What about when Brunstrum gets the sack? erm, wait, that should be if he gets the sack!

If you need a good reference me & Luckypants can bash heads together! :lol:

Good to hear from you again Fraser!

Ello Bluepete :wink:

'Ow are ya mate! All well I hope? :D

Does the law exempt all these numpties in transit type vans, who work for some partnership or other? They seem to be able to park where they like. blocking footpaths and in bus lanes. I saw one parked on a Red Route on Wednesday.

The law cannot be used like this. Come the revolution!

It annoys me because I got done over 30 years ago for parking on a motorway bridge while trying to jump start a mates car. My car was off the road and parked half on the grass and half on the footpath

I agree police shoul;d be subject to the same rules as us when not on emergencies, which means they should be done if they are PROVEN to be speeding. How would a senior office know you've not just reported a copper who you have a grudge against? or someone who's just plain anti-police?

If it helps you get it off your chest report it but if I was a senior police officer I'd take no action as it's just hearsay, same as you reporting a civilian speeding.

fraser01 wrote:

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