New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Hi,

I got rear-ended last year (no huge damage - £1400 damage to the bike, fractured coccyx + minor sore bits). 3rd party admitted liability, went on a police course, and things seemed to be progressing well.
I don't remember anything between feeling the bike (I was stopped at a roundabout) was falling and trying to extricate myself from under the front skirting of the bike. The whole next hour is a bit blank, I don't remember taking off my helmet (so I don't know what I did with it - dropped it, put it down carefully etc), I remember sitting in a witness' car, phoning my wife and starting to cry (!!!), but that's about it.

Carole Nash provided me with legal cover, and when the spoke to me, I said that tho there wasn't any visible damage to my helmet, I'd claim for a new one (£250 rrp - I got the replacement for less) as I didn't know whether I'd hit it and damaged it. I was told that this would be fine. I liked the helmet I had, and the colour scheme, but a new model had come out, so I had to try a few places before I could find one exactly the same as my old one. I bought this, and sent the receipt to the solicitor.
I've just got a letter from the sol saying that the other insurers want photos of the damage to the old helmet. I'll send them photos, but there is no visible damage, so there is an implication that they will refuse to pay.

My current thought is that I could say "well, if you guarantee that my old helmet is fine, I'll carry on wearing it and woe betide you if I get knocked off again and it is found that the helmet was actually damaged previously", but I'm not sure the legal implications.

The sol I'm talking to is petulant at best, but I'll certainly speak to her if I need to.

Any thoughts?

Many thanks

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

The marking requirements for motorcycle helmets and visors approved to UN ECE Regulation 22.05 states that
It doesn't say that if a helmet is visably damaged it must be replaced, but if it has sustained a violent impact it must be replaced. So therefore your old helmet does not comply with legislation (and therefore would probably invalidate any insurance) despite how it looks.

Conclusion: Damn right they should pay for the replacement!!!:D

I hope this helps in some way

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

What kind of helmet is it? I've a battered Shoei Z-one that I can send you some pictures of? :)

What does the helmet look like inside? I was told that you can sometimes see the foam compressed inside, especially if foam is painted something other than white but is white inside the foam, as you will see white cracks where it has compressed. Check for that first.

Failing that send a picture of the helmet and find some documentation to send them that states a helmet should be replaced after a knock. For instance I just got this off the Shoei website:
"
Is a crashed / dropped helmet still safe to wear?
Current safety helmets are designed to absorb the energy of an accident by being destroyed. Even a small impact can damage the integrity of the shell or the inner liner. Quite often this damage may be unnoticeable to the untrained eye. Therefore, any helmet involved in an impact should not be used again
"

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

When I was offed, I got a full payout for my uninsurred losses of helmet/leathers etc. Easy though as the stuff was only 7 days old and I had the original reciepts.

I would suggest that you reply back that if they are not prepared to replace the helmet (probably expect that you would be required to make a contribution for betterment, as in a helmet is a consumable that should have a lifetime of say 5 years). Then they should be prepared to pay for an xray and report on the helmet state and replace if any defect is found.

Under these conditions I would expect most legal bods would accept that they have a duty to make good your damages and to replace the lid could actually be the least cost option.

Good luck

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

My thoughts exactly.....

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Just a bit more on the issue of a contribution towards betterment.

It is a standard tool used by insurance companies to reduce costs. For instance if a tyre needs to be replaced as a result of damage then they could require you to contribute for the percentage of the tyre that is already worn. The same with exhausts or panels on cars with pre-existing damage or corrosion.

Again with leathers etc. They do not operate a new for old. so you may only get 60% of the cost of a year old leathers etc.

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Yes, but not much good when you can't get second hand lids though.

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Thanks chaps - excellent suggestions.
One reason I went for exactly the same helmet was so I couldn't be accused of betterment - thought they'd appreciate the sentiment.

But I think referring them to standards site and Shoei site is a great idea.

Rgds

Rupert.

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Hi Matt,

Could you direct me to where you got this quote from? I've had a look on Google and can't find anything like this. I'm sure it's there - I just can't find it!
(found the Shoei quote no probs)

Many thanks

Rgds
Rupert

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

I don't really have any experience in this field but from reading the above, it would appear as though the other party's solicitor is 'trying it on' (probably because the claimant is of the opinion that we all swan around with some piece of junk on our head that cost a fiver from the local boot sale) - definetly worth calling his bluff - I reckon I would in the same or similar situation.

Good luck :thumbsup:

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Seems you guys have covered what I was (and am) going to say.

1. Accept their viewpoint that they do not automatically pay out
2. Point out that as a vital part of PPE it is essential that any damage sustained to the helmet renders it useless
3. Point out that damage is not always visible
4. Offer the helmet to be inspected by them, noting that it may be necessary for it to be scanned to carry out a non-intrusive survey.

Betterment is a peculiar thing. You are allowed to improve when replacing! In cases where it is not reasonable to replace with like-for-like (such as helmets - you would not replace with a similar 2 year-old helmet etc) you are allowed to replace with an item of a specification of similar standing. Say you bought a Ford Cortina and years down the line you claimed a replacement, you would not have to accept a Ford Cortina as a replacement, however, you could claim that a Mondeo was an acceptable alternative as it represents a similar position in the market taking in to consideration movement of technology and prices in the meantime. (or so said the QC in a case I know only too well!)

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

just do what my mate did, hit it with a hammer a few times, scrub it on the floor and send them the pics!

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Hi Rupert

I'll have to post where i got that from on Monday as I can't remember what i searched for on Google so need to look at history on work PC. I'll have a think and try tomorrow though.

Here's another link for you http://www.dsa.gov.uk/Category.asp?cat=203

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Now that would be insurance fraud ;)

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

My other half suggested I did that as well, but I decided that I'd probably get caught! :-)

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Thanks Matt (and thanks for the DSA link - I should have thought of them - my Dad was the original Chief Exec when the agency was formed!)

rgds

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

I dragged my ar*e into work today and found that link for that quote i gave its:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/group...pdf_506862.pdf

On Google i searched for Motorcycle Helmet Regulations and this was the first link, though now I think that that DSA link will be the most suitable arguement.

Hope it all goes well for you, they make enough money!!

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

I'd say it depends on the sort of lid. If they offer a service of checking it for damage (I think I remember reading about Arai/Shoei offering this for £30 or thereabouts), where they xray it and check it thoroughly and issue a certificate to that effect. If that's possible, they could pay for that, instead of a new lid. That's if you want to co-operate and have the right sort of lid, mind. I'd also point out that they led you to believe it would not be a problem to replace the lid and you bought it, you have already incurred that cost as a result of the accident (and as others have remarked, it's not like you can sell the lid on to recoup the loss), hence they should be the ones paying up.

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Thanks for taking the time to do that for me Matt - appreciate it.
I thought it was just me who had an extremely low opinion of insurers - it seems not! :-)

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

I thought it was just me who had an extremely low opinion of insurers - it seems not! :-)[/quote]

no no no lol, i hate them, you pay all that money and they offer you nothing when you claim!!! angry rant !!! :smt019 :smt019 :smt062

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

That's ok, no worries.
Not the greatest fan of insurance. Had my phone nicked once from work. Thought someone may have picked it up by accident so gave them a week to put it back where they found it, which they didn't.
Went and got a police statement, phoned up insurance and they refused to cough up as I didn't report it within 24hrs. So went back down police station and they 'adjusted' the date on the statement for me. Was then sucessful in my claim heh heh :D.

Had a helmet incident myself this morn :( but I'll put that in another thread.

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Here's a good link for you Rupert (and anyone else too). Just found it. It's the full EN22.05 standard.
http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29...egs/22rv4e.pdf :D

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Get a letter from the legal people from my insurers a couple days ago.
The 3rd party are offering to settle:

£318 expenses (helmet of ~£240 and bupa physio of £78)
£750 compensation

Which seems ok to me. My biggest concern was getting the money I'd paid out refunded as opposed to any compensation (tho I did hurt quite a lot for a few weeks, but I just accept this as a consequence of doing something which can be relatively dangerous).

So thanks for all the input chaps.

Rgds

Rupert

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Arai check it as a free service - for the first 5 years. At least with HG and Infinity they do.

Nice to here it has been sorted anyways!

Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

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Re: New helmet - other party refusing to pay
 

Actually while the percentage reduction for wear and tear is something people need to agree on [and this was my gripe last year on the van accident] that does not apply to the lids according to my solicitor.

That doesnt mean you go out and buy a more expensive lid, however a replacement lid is generally accepted as a necessity and that it should be a like for like replacement. Because generally there is no wear and tear on the lid - theyre designed effectively for one impact and if you have that impact thats the lid damaged and pretty much unusable. And because its mandatory legal requirement while insurers argue everything else, my solicitor was pretty much stating they cant really argue over the lid.

Nice result Rpwoodman :D