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Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
Hello all!
You guys helped me out several times from just reading some threads...but now, after exhausting myself reading through a bunch of posts, the time has come to post my own! I have a ‘03 curvy (I know, right?!) with around 10k miles on it. Got it in July and loving every minute. However now been really struggling to keep the love alive. It’s refusing to start!! As soon as the temp dropped it became more difficult to start in the mornings. One day it wouldn’t start (wouldn’t attempt to turn over but would click and the starting procedure would stop) until I did a running/push start. This continued for a few weeks. Sometimes all it needed was to hold the starter button for a prolonged time to get it going, other times a simple roll-forward off the side stand and it would start. Other times a few laps running around car park with it. Was sure it was battery. Put brand new one in (and gave my curvy a good wash while I was at it). Worked like a charm!...until the next morning. refused to start (this time attempted to turn over but wouldn’t). After a running start it did, but needed the choke to be almost fully on to stay running otherwise would stall. Got riding but it stalled at traffic light when I lowered choke and then at a junction and would not start after that. I turned it around and took a painfully long time to start up again. 10-15 seconds of attempted turnover with full choke and handful of throttle eventually got it slowly ticking over. Got home, changed spark plugs. Rode to and from work just fine. Was sure this was it! Then today it went back to not even attempting to turn over, just clicking and stopping. A couple laps around car park later and it slowly got ticking over and I rode off to work. (All this choke use got me filling up 30 miles prematurely this evening!) Anyway...now I’m lost with what to do next. First it seemed to be battery, but the weirdness the next day after installing new one suggests otherwise. Not spark plugs either...Doubt it’s a charging issue as is unlikely to drain a brand new battery while standing still overnight. so what could cause it to refuse to even attempt to turn over again, at least until running/pushing it or holding down the starter button for a while?? Please help! Thanks! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
Forgot to mention, I read on another thread that with choke rpm should be around 2.5k...mine is nearly 4k! In case this is relevant...
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Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
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You need to check the charging. It has all the symptoms of simply not charging the battery. https://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
Again I agree with Ember, when my RR started to fail the bike was hard to start and ran like a pig. Not enough sparks at low revs
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Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
All the above is good advice, if you have a multimeter you can check the voltage across the battery terminals when the bike is running, which will give you a good idea of what's happening. Voltage should be over 13V at fast idle and over 14V (but less than 15V) at a steady 4,000 rpm.
However, one thing to try before you do all the electrical checks. Are the main earth points for the loom, and the connection to the starter nice and clean? If those connections are dirty, corroded etc then they can also cause the symptoms you describe. Give the main earth connection (at the rear right of the engine, have a look with a torch and you'll see it, it connects to one of the rear clutch cover bolts) and the connection to the starter a good hosing down with WD40 and make sure they are tight. |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
All of the above.Start with grounds and take the Starter off and clean and bare the mating surfaces between the Starter and the engine.This is a main current path when starting.
Check main grounds @ the battery and frame.No point doing in-bike tests on the R/R if there's high current corroded contacts. Remove check and clean and de-corrode the main R/R connectors.These are commonly overlooked and quite often have never been serviced and a common area of fault and can put a massive strain on other electrical components and in extreme cases cause melt-downs and electrical fires, https://i.imgur.com/HkKk3pW.jpg |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
Thank you all for your replies! Will attempt your suggestions over the weekend and report back
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Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
I forgot to add that my main Electrical connector near the head-stock had some corroded contacts,which was a breakdown just waiting to happen.I cleaned these with a jeweller's small screwdriver with some 500 grit paper wrapped around it and Switch cleaner and then treated with ACF50.
It's quite common on older machines that mechanical parts are kept well serviced but electrics are over-looked but corrosion never sleeps but can be slowed down to point where it cannot cause problems :) |
Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
Guys, quick question.
Was planning on getting at your suggestions tomorrow but don’t know if will have time now as will need to go somewhere. However, did take out the battery and thought to leave it on charge overnight to make sure I can start it tomorrow...well the charge read 13.22 and connecting to the charger it said it’s fully charged but I left it on anyway just in case. (Been riding every day but Friday this week, and Saturday was the hardest to start, but been running nonetheless) So does this mean that it can’t be the charging system after all? since after continuous use, it still has good charge left? Surely battery should be much worse off by now if it was... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
I think you have got two problems.The sluggish starting one is possibly poor connections or faulty starter motor/solonoid. Overhaul all wiring connectors as said above and you can run a wire direct from battery to the cap on the starter motor to see if that gets it spinning the engine(just briefly though!).Keep the battery charged properly at all times in winter. Never a bad idea to get a cheapie multimeter to check the charging system too. Loads of stuff on here if you do a search.
The other problem is the poor running on the choke/odd tickover you describe.I think that is likely to be a service issue or possibly an intake air leak.Check the carbs and airbox are properly seated on their rubbers and then service the choke plungers and cables.Again a search on here will give you the lowdown but its something that needs doing regularly anyway.You say you put new plugs in? What did the old ones look like and were they both the same? |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
Hey guys. Been a while...I came off on that weekend before I had the chance to try everything! Sad times as am still waiting for the shifter to arrive from America..
But here is the interesting part... Before I came off, I had the chance to check the airbox (thought would start with the easy stuff before getting to electrics). And after removing it I find petrol (edit: could have been oil...forgotten by now!!) inside. This could explain the choke issue right? But how could it have gotten in there??! So i cleaned out the liquid from the airbox and run a bit of fuel system cleaner through it and rode out to my friend’s. The next morning it had trouble starting again but did eventually, I rode for 5 mins and came off. Took it back to his where it is now. Came back a week later to have a look at it and it started first time without problems! I think this is because the connection in the starter motor jolted back into place or something?? But now the exhaust sounds different...more muted and not as crisp and raspy as before and backfires every now and then on idle. Yet another mystery to solve. To sum up: I think Biggles is right in that there were/are two problems: starter motor and choke. The choke issue seems to be something to do with the presence of petrol/oil in the airbox (is this what running rich means?). Ordered a new filter. But how did it get there? What’s the cause? The starter motor issue (as my car mechanic friend explained) could be something to do with worn out brushes which causes motor to short (im paraphrasing but he seemed to be sure of it as soon as I described the symptoms). The fall may have shifter the position of the brushes which is why it now starts well again. But have Ordered the back part of the starter motor to replace. If these fail, will get to examining the electrics. But now, the issue of the backfiring...does anyone have any ideas? |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
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The plugs were changed not a week before the crash. Brand spanking new. No I put the old filter back in prior to riding it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
Hmm my money on the backfiring - which I'm guessing is more of a pop than a gunshot - is a stuck choke and it's all running rich. Nothing to do with oil in the airbox - mine gets this now and again if I cane it, it builds up slowly really. You need to check the cable for kinks and make sure it has enough slack in it. Also check where it splits as this little box is easy to break. You could do with getting the plungers out and checking for rust etc. build-up on the seats. If you follow the cables to the two carbs, you need to undo the single screw of the retaining plate, and carefully pull out the plunger - if in doubt, pull the choke lever right back first and nothing will fall off. Check the recess for crud, repeat for the other carb. The screws and be stuck fast so use a good-fitting screwdriver and try not to chew them.
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Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
Hey guys. Been a while. A lot has happened since...
After a difficult time starting on a particularly cold morning, got it going but noticed the gargling backfire was worse than usual. Cranked up the choke. After a few hundred metres, pulling up to a traffic light, noticed the revs dropping and the gargling g continued. Upped the choke. On the dual carriage, plodding at about 70 to warm it up. Traffic ahead, rolling off the throttle and when at about 2-3k revs, it shuts down completely. Would not start up again while still coasting. So I coast off the side off the curb (lucky was by a stretch of curb with a parallel road rather than just a wall). Trying to start with no such luck. This time not even a hiss, click, fizz, bang, crackle or pop...nada. Other electrics showing signs of life though with the lights, hi beams, indicators, horn as well I think. Just no ignition. Left it there and took the bus to work. Friend picked it up with his van in the eve. By the tine get to mine, van stank of petrol. Could see petrol on the right side of the engine, looks line came form front carb. Figured it was a blocked carb so I stripped them off the bike and cleaned them myself, getting all the jets, float needle and seats etc...the whole shebang. Also, as someone had suggested, took off the starter motor and replaced the brushes. When the weather picked up, got to work...connected the carbs back up, checked and lubed the throttle and choke cables as you guys suggested, inspected the electrics as much as was easily accessible, reinstated the starter motor, charged the battery. Started right away. But then it didn’t, so replaced the starter solenoid, same story. Then done what I should have checked first, the clutch starter switch, cleaned it and that seemed to have done the trick. Started perfectly and ran flawlessly...no leaks. Gave it a thorough clean, cleaned and lubed the chain, changed the oil. Next day was ecstatic to be riding to work again. In the morning had a tiny hitch when starting but nothing major and started pretty much right away. Got to work. 8 hours later thought, the difficult starting began again. A minute of struggling, got it going. Next morning much worse. Took 5 minutes to get it turning over (see vids at below link). Basically same problem began. Oh and some petrol and oil comes out of then left side hole in the engine (rear plug drain hole??) when starting only. Got worse after work. The following night I decided to take off the battery to charge it in case the problem was with the rectifier (nope. Battery was fully charged). There was a strong smell of petrol and having a look (the first two vids at the link) I could see the petrol stains on the left side of the engine and some deeper inside. So basically am now even more lost than ever. The difficulty starting seems to be inherently linked to the petrol leak. But why it started leaking again is beyond me. Only took two trips for it to come back. What could it be?? https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0BJ0DiRHGNU4RA (the videos are in reverse chronological order) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
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You have no idea. Was verging on tears when the leak returned [emoji38]. Right. So I’ve ordered a rebuild kit for each carb. Once they arrive, will take the carbs off and rebuild. Will then test the integrity by blowing into and adjusting the float to see if it shuts off the airflow. (Will check the height of the tab in the manual) Will then look for how to test the fuel pump and valve in the manual. Will report back once have tried, unless anyone has any other ideas I could try while the carbs will be off?? Appreciate all your help. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
whats rining my alarm bells is:
1. sidestand switch or clutch switch is fubar. when these go you can usually start the bike when the sidestand is up or down depending on what mode the switch is stuck at. problem is the SV has a "check" built into the ECU so a fubar switch will stop the bike from starting. sometimes giving the bike a push start will "jiggle" the switch enough to let the bike start. 2. smoke from the drain hole, thats mousture so water is getting into the plugs. if water is getting into the plugs it will trap itself under the plug cap causing arching and eventually break down the plug insulation. |
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Not really under pressure, just kind of seeps out. Wasn’t a windy day. Haven’t cleaned out yet...didn’t know I could/ should. Will do this eve along with checking the seating of the spark pluga! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
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Not really under pressure, just kind of seeps out. Wasn’t a windy day. Haven’t cleaned out yet...didn’t know I could/ should. Will do this eve along with checking the seating of the spark plugs! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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Ahh this so sounds like the problem! Just went down to smell the oil gasket and it smells of petrol! Hydrolocked [emoji33] Now to find the cause of the leak, right? First will check the fuel pump/ petcock. Then the carbs...have received the restore kits last week Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
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Hmm...good shout. the switches could be a culprit also as I did initially think it could have been the clutch switch..didn’t think of the stand one. Is there any way of telling without replacing?...will check these once I’ve run through the hydrolock symptom checklist. The petrol smell from the oil gasket is a strong indicator that that is the problem though I reckon Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
If you have a multimeter it's worth checking the Spark plug caps.Set it on the 20k Ohm setting and test the caps.Stock they have a 5K ohm ceramic resistor in them.As they age the corrosion on the contact points inside and the resistor can increase the overall resistance.Once it starts going North of around 8K ohms they can cause all sorts of problems like bad starting/engine cutting out and misfiring and rev limiting.
https://i.imgur.com/Vh43D6p.jpg They came in around 1980 ish but not long after Spark plug makers started fitting 5k Ohm resistors into the Spark plugs so this over complicated form of Spark plug cap is not even needed if using,"R" rated Resistor Spark plugs but motorcycle makers still fit them as standard. I used to run both my old hondas with none resistor caps but with,"R" resistor Spark Plugs,no problems. They were/are fitted as a filter to reduce the possibility of Back EMF(Electromotive Force) that can cause problems with other components in the Ignition system and not as some people believed as Radio suppression. Even as recent as Yesterday my M8 came round to tell me his bought-from-new Triumph Street cup had just been fixed as it kept cutting out and it was Faulty Spark plug caps!! :O |
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Do you mean the actual spark plugs or the rubbery shoe that goes over it? The plugs are pretty new but I did take the rear one out to inspect this evening. It looked quite sooted over (can see in the video I added today to the link below). Don’t know how to use my multimeter if I’m honest. Used it to check the battery and that’s about it... Do you think it could be the plugs given their age (4/5 months)? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
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I managed to get her going this evening to inspect the above. The fuel pump and vacuum did not show any obvious external leaks. All hoses seemed sound too. And to be honest, the leak wasn’t there...the residue of fuel over the left side of the engine coming from that small hole was still visible from before, as well as some inside the valley between the cylinders, below the front carb if that makes sense. But no new, fresh leaking petrol. The only thing was the way the carbs were spraying (added video to below link). possibly some worn needle seats or carb seals that allowed petrol to escape and overfill into the cylinders? I took the carbs off to change the seals and needles, seats etc.. I feel like this problem is starting to make sense to me...although still seems like a lot of work. There doesn’t seems to be a problem with the petcock as it was mentioned on the post that seeker posted that a torn membrane leak petrol externally. No leaking fuel hoses either. So must be inside the carbs...Does it make sense to you guys? Am I on the right track? https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0BJ0DiRHGNU4RA Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/jXwAA...f7/s-l1600.jpg And as per my post even low mileage Spark plugs and Spark Plug caps can fail.It's not common but does happen hence the resistance tests. |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
I couldn't get the videos to play in my Browser first time so I went back and downloaded them and then they would play.
It's almost definitely a carb issue and possible fuel in the engine oil/Hydro lock. I had a similar issue on one of my Old Hondas with CV carbs.There's a set of circumstances whereby if the Floats have gone out-of-spec the Needle valves inside the carbs that they lift don't stop the fuel as it should when the the correct fuel height is reached. Then if the engine happens to have been stopped with the inlet valves open and there is a fault with the Petcock as well fuel can drip into the engine and into the engine oil.As I said I had this happen and the engine would not turn over but I smelt fuel and when I took the oil filler cap off the stink was there and the oil was contaminated to hell. If the engine had started I bet it would have been ruined in minutes. As I already knew a lot about these carbs I took them off and cleaned and dressed the ends of the Float needle valves with some toothpaste(It's a tip in the Haynes for them) and reset the Float heights as they had gone out from 15.5mm from the perpendicular/Carb body which is the specs for the CX500. I've not checked for the CV carbs in my SV as I've had no problems so far but will have a read later. There's a nice blow-up here and it's parts 28/29 I'm talking about, https://www.motorcyclespareparts.eu/...les/carburetor This would also account for the fuel I saw bubbling at idle in the video. Note:Once I had fixed the carbs I ran some cheap 20w50 engine oil in the engine for a few mins and then dumped it and then did it again and dumped it.Then used my proper engine oil. Yes a bit of faffing about but for the cost of a cheap gallon of oil well worth it IMHO and had no problems with the engine and carbs after that for thousands of miles. BTW.B&M Supermarkets are doing a 10w40 semi synthetic engine oil for £12.99 for 4 litres you can use as a flush. https://www.bmstores.co.uk/products/...-oil-4l-334747 |
Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
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Firstly, thank you both for your invaluable input so far Seeker and Riff...keeping me on the right track with this Appreciate you asking the tech.! To answer your question seeker, it was on the stand, yes. I’m just in the process of changing over the needles and seats. The seals came with the kit too, but are a load of crap as they main bowl gasket seal is not the same size and doesn’t sit flush, so keeping the old seal as that seems the better option. I have not changed the floats...should I? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
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Cheers Riff. I’m changing part 28 as we speak. 29 I didn’t get. Do you happen to know the correct needle height? I change it by adjusting the tab on the float, right? I’ve cleaned the carbs with carb cleaner previously, don’t know how good of a job I did, as I’ve read some guys leave the jets soaking in carb cleaner for 3 days! I used carb cleaner spray and small bristles to clean the jet holes. You say the engine would be ruined in minutes...well mine starts from time to time! And i rode to work and back a few times despite starting difficulties as shown in the vids... so I’m a bit lost as to what the actual diagnosis is...is it hydrolocked? The symptoms so far : •oil smells of petrol •petrol leaking from somewhere around the carbs and out of rear plug drain hole but not from the petcock or vacuum •petrol spraying out of the piston valve that seeker’s tech said shouldn’t •starting difficulties. Feels like it comes to a grinding holt when attempting to turn over. But after many attempts it eventually starts. Currently am changing the carb needles and seats and some of the seals that came with the kit, although I’m pretty sure some of them are not right for my carbs which I’ll leave out Will at some of that oil...I can use it in the bike right? Says is car oil... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
Sooo...after stripping the carbs and trying to change the needles etc, I stripped a screw holding the needle seat in place. Long story short, couldn’t be arsed with this damned carb anymore and just ordered a second hand low miles one off eBay. Installed yesterday. No petrol smell. No obvious leak. No more petrol spray inside carb. Whoop!
Done as R1FF suggested, got some cheap 5L Halfords 10w40 oil to run through the engine and drained it. Repeat x3. Topped up with some fully synthetic Repsol oil to run with. Feeling confident, rode to work this morning. However, now, it is backfiring and popping like nobody’s business at low revs (maybe high revs too but just cant hear it). If I let go of throttle, it eventually drops the revs and dies 🤦🏼*♂️ so have to sit at the lights with the throttle partially open and a load of popping from the exhaust...must be quite a sight. But I think it’s progress nonetheless! Several things come to mind: • change spark plugs • carb adjustment screw set incorrectly and is running too lean (or rich?) • carbs out of sync with engine (hope it’s not this as cannot do myself) • carbs have vacuum leak • overfilled oil a tad (would this cause backfiring?) (Note: while tinkering I lost a small part from the choke lever when dismantling the handle. Now the choke keeps springing back. Doesn’t stay on. Will need to sort this but maybe is the culprit?) What do you guys think? Is there a more obvious solution I’m not seeing? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
However, now, it is backfiring and popping like nobody’s business at low revs (maybe high revs too but just cant hear it). If I let go of throttle, it eventually drops the revs and dies
The most common cause of problems after carb swaps/servicing is air-leaks being introduced so check again for them.Your above statement leads me to to this along with cable routing and of course Carb Balance check. Also the 2nd hand carbs need some fuel cleaner in the fuel in case they are gummed up if you didn't strip and clean them. As for Carb syncing it's not that hard with a Carbtune2, https://www.carbtune.com/inst.html I've done loads of carbs with mine. |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
Thanks for the suggestions guys.
I put some Redex in the tank to clean it out and adjusted the pilot screw (hard to tell by how much as did it without taking them off) and tightened the idle screw. Seems to have improved the situation...The loud backfiring has stopped and it doesn’t die on idle anymore. However it’s still a little uneven on idle - the Rev needle bounces about a little. Guess it needs a bit more fine tuning. On a side note...after doing the above, went for a test ride. Thought it wasn’t as smooth at high revs and making noises so gave it some wallop (not that much). Get to a roundabout, guess who pulls up next to me? The old bill, asking to pullover. Got done for doing 88 in a 50. So at least 3 more points to be expected. Got the other 3 about 2/3 months earlier 🤦🏼*♂️one expensive test ride Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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Have the carbs been balanced? Here's my old Carb balancing page, https://cx500.000webhostapp.com/CarbBalancing.html |
Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
No, carbs yet to be rebalanced (synced?). Thanks for the link R1FF, will check it out.
Also still need to check for air leaks as had no WD40 at home. Will get some today. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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Re: Curvy Cold Starting Needs Running Start
Don't wish to put a downer on it but I'd hold off doing too much to the bike. You have 3 points already and now a band C ticket. That's 6 points or a disqualification, and a hefty fine.
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Cor downer indeed! [emoji1]What’s a Band C ticket? Can still ride with 9 points, no? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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