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Ed 22-11-10 11:43 AM

Irish mess
 
I'm on the horns of a dilemma:confused:

I'm half Irish (mother is from Co Mayo) and I want to see Ireland prosper:D

But when we can't afford our own public services, and everything seems to be slash and burn, how are we affording to lend Ireland £7bn?:evil: Where is the money coming from? More borrowing?

Isn't it more important that we spend the money on ourselves? Or will it simply cost us more in the long term if the Irish economy fails, would Northern Ireland collapse too? I dunno.

My rellies over in Mayo and Galway have all worked damned hard and they are embarrassed and deeply upset - as usual, it's nothing to do with normal people. Banks... again:evil::evil::evil:

klu 22-11-10 11:52 AM

Re: Irish mess
 
We've a load of fat, useless politicians you are welcome to, they won't be missed here.

eviltwin 22-11-10 12:06 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Ed, I guess we have to view it as a business decision and think purely in terms of economics, rather than politics. I suppose it makes sense for Britain to lend the money...it is, after all, a loan not a handout so will be repaid with interest - an investment.

I presume it will also protect British business, in that if the Irish economy collapses entirely, Anglo-Irish trade will be hit. As I understand it, Ireland is our biggest trade partner - so the loan helps UK plc.

Plus, there's the added element of the state owned bank such as RBS holding books of Irish debt. About £35 billion of our (UK taxpayers') money that would go up in smoke if Irish banks collapsed.

Biker Biggles 22-11-10 12:07 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Ireland is just the next domino to go.Spain and Portugal look like being next,but the whole edifice will collapse eventually as nearly all the western economies are technically bankrupt and no amount of bailing out can cover that up for ever.
We bailed out the banks last year and the year before.We are now bailing out smaller countries.Who will bail out the bigger countries next year and the year after that?China?Maybe some of the oil rich middle eastern countries?
Either way there will be a price tag and it wont just be a monetary one.

Bri w 22-11-10 12:10 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed (Post 2426758)
I'm on the horns of a dilemma:confused:

I'm half Irish (mother is from Co Mayo) and I want to see Ireland prosper:D

But when we can't afford our own public services, and everything seems to be slash and burn, how are we affording to lend Ireland £7bn?:evil: Where is the money coming from? More borrowing?

Isn't it more important that we spend the money on ourselves? Or will it simply cost us more in the long term if the Irish economy fails, would Northern Ireland collapse too? I dunno.

My rellies over in Mayo and Galway have all worked damned hard and they are embarrassed and deeply upset - as usual, it's nothing to do with normal people. Banks... again:evil::evil::evil:

Ditto, half Irish and want to see Ireland prosper.

Loaning to Ireland, one of our biggest trading partners, makes for commonsense. Britain exports £24,000,000,000 worth of goods annually, and if Ireland struggles it impacts on the UK.

as an aside, I wonder how many bankers have been sacked for incompetence?

Drew Carey 22-11-10 12:12 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Its simples......the Irish Economy goes under the world financial markets would all collapse on a scale never seen before.....and I mean never. There are too many govt funds from accross the world invested in what was once a prosperous country.

As for the what will happen next. No actual country will physically go bankrupt, the international banks, IMF, European Bank etc would never allow it. They will just loan until it ceases. But will it ever all be paid back? Nope. Eventually, you will probably see the likes of the international banks righting off debt as they do in Africa....but with much larger westernised states.

Just my 4p worth. Not neccesarily right or wrong.

metalmonkey 22-11-10 12:34 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
On the news its said RBS had leant a lot of money to Ireland it was over 100 billion pounds, which was leant to fuel their property market, the report went onto say that 20% of properties has gone into negative equaity.

The state owns 2/3 thirds of RBS so to lose that money, would casue a few problems...The report went onto say that many people in Ireland have taken their money out of the Irish banks.

How could so many bad choices have been made? With the UK giving out a loan, it will be more than the savings made by the cuts then the UK will have get a loan togther to make this payment to prop up a failing banking system. Whats to say that more money won't be need in near the future?

Ireland is also one of our biggest trading partners.

What happens next as more countries need a loan?

G 22-11-10 12:40 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Biker Biggles (Post 2426776)
.Who will bail out the bigger countries next year and the year after that?China?Maybe some of the oil rich middle eastern countries?
Either way there will be a price tag and it wont just be a monetary one.


This has already happened... Abu Dhabi bailed out Dubai... hence the name of the Burj being changed to Khalifa or whatever it's called.

Dubai World would not afford to pay the interested on it's debt.

The whole stocks and shares stuff is a load of rubbish... if someone is making money, it means someone else has lost some. They keep building up until one of the big boys messes up, then a poo hits the fan.

It's all electronic money anyway, none of it's real... just a complete farce.

husky03 22-11-10 12:53 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Its a big $hit pie and everyones gonna have to take a piece-can see us going back to the dark days of the late 70's/early 80's-its pretty scary if your old enough to remember how bad things were at times-how i wish i lived out in the middle of nowhere-self sufficient having little dependance on what happens elsewhere.

Biker Biggles 22-11-10 01:02 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by husky03 (Post 2426815)
Its a big $hit pie and everyones gonna have to take a piece-can see us going back to the dark days of the late 70's/early 80's-its pretty scary if your old enough to remember how bad things were at times-how i wish i lived out in the middle of nowhere-self sufficient having little dependance on what happens elsewhere.

I think its much worse than that.Back in the 70s we had a huge industrial sector spread out all over the UK.There were big problems with British industry at the time,but compare that to now.We have closed it all down,and built "affordable housing" where there used to be industry.So who can produce the goods to power us out of the carp we are in?Oh.Back to the Chinese it is then,who will suck all the remaining money out of us and put us further in debt.We can print yet more money to buy yet more Chinese imports but unless we relearn the culture of making stuff we are dead ducks.Its probably two decades too late anyway.

husky03 22-11-10 01:25 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
your bang on BB- i can remember everynight at about half nine , ten o'clock the skyline in the clydevalley used to be lit up in an orange glow due to the Ravenscraig steelworks opening up the furnace type thing-what happened-just as you said , cheap imported steel resulted in the place being shut down and thousands out of work-not only the steelworkers but all the wee shops and businesses that relied on the tradesmen - still there's houses and a regeneration programme on the go-its only taken the best part of 15-20 years-i think there's a major recession to come that will make the last one seem like a blip on the radar.

yorkie_chris 22-11-10 03:14 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eviltwin (Post 2426774)
I presume it will also protect British business, in that if the Irish economy collapses entirely, Anglo-Irish trade will be hit. As I understand it, Ireland is our biggest trade partner - so the loan helps UK plc.

I don't know the figures on it but have not quite a few British businesses moved out to Ireland because of their lower taxes?

So in actual fact is that trade mostly going the other way?

G 22-11-10 03:45 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by husky03 (Post 2426862)
i think there's a major recession to come that will make the last one seem like a blip on the radar.

I agree, the imaginary money can't just keep flowing.

There will be bigger recessions before THE 'Big One'... Then countries will fail and WW3 will break out when countries start truely looking after themselves.

Scary times ahead potentially? Do you save for it, and come out of it stronger as you had some money behind you... or if you know your going to be screwed do you just make the most of what you can get now? After all if you save and THE 'Big One'/WW3 breaks out your money is worth nothing.

Specialone 22-11-10 04:00 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
It said on the news this morning, that every Rep irish consumer spends £3k + a year on british supplied goods.
Im not pleased about helping out others atm as were are so deep in the sh1te ourselves, but i can why the government are doing it, they are a big consumer of our exports, they tighten their belts and go into recession we suffer anyway, so prevention is better than the cure i think.

I mean, there is only so many potatoes you can eat / sell isnt there ;)

husky03 22-11-10 04:10 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by G (Post 2426959)

Scary times ahead potentially? Do you save for it, and come out of it stronger as you had some money behind you...

thats the big Q -I think its gonna be a case of you need to look after your own and if others fall by the wayside unfortunately so be it-i can see a big tax rise coming our way in the future with those who are lucky enough to have a job being hit hard and those who don't having to make do-the big companies like sky etc are gonna find lots of cancelled contracts which will mean more job loses and we go around again.
Mind the miners strikes where butchers were doing a miners pack of meat for about a quid-can see that type of thing happening again.

Bibio 22-11-10 04:31 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
big question is, would the Irish help us if the tables were turned?

dont get me wrong i love the Irish and i for one am glad we are helping. but where does it stop?

we are going the same way. the uk pound is far to strong our house prices are non reflective to the average wage which in turn pushed wages even higher which makes any goods we do produce far to expensive to be competitive on the open market which in turn is causing businesses to up roots and seek cheaper staff/tax.

britain is fecked plain and simple. the government are pushing the price up on duty/tax to try and claw its way out of a major recession but when the prices get to high the public will stop buying which will result in devaluation of the pound and negative equity on property.

credit crunch.. feck off it was just an excuse to push interest rates up on loans/cards as the banks were not making it on mortgages. whats going to happen when the BOE does stick mortgage rates up?

my view. but as said before i'm stupid and know nothing about nowt.

husky03 22-11-10 04:40 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bibio (Post 2426982)
but as said before i'm stupid and know nothing about nowt.

Your then perfect material to run as an MP mate-couldn't do any worse could ya?

Bibio 22-11-10 04:49 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
yes, most definitely. i would have every one in their house by 9pm have all their money transferred into the state bank and shoot granny's on sight and publicly flog anyone who makes trouble. ban booze, fags, fun and make it mandatory for each and every person to have an enema once a week. any more suggestion are more than welcome.

so who's going to vote for me in the next election?

eviltwin 22-11-10 04:58 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yorkie_chris (Post 2426942)
I don't know the figures on it but have not quite a few British businesses moved out to Ireland because of their lower taxes?

So in actual fact is that trade mostly going the other way?

Some multinationals have a base there eg HP & Intel, due to a corporation tax that's low for Europe (if Ireland raises this, it can wave these companies off to China and India).

In terms of what Britain exports to Ireland, news reports today mentioned £3,607 per person, per year in Ireland as the figure spent on British goods

davepreston 22-11-10 05:34 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
remeber people roi was nearly bankrupt about 10 years ago but then the world went spending mad and it saved their bacon, problem was they then thought life was gravy and didnt pay off there debts from the first time,
basicly what britian will get in return for lending the republic cash will outweigh what it would lose, so yea we should do it abite im begrudgeing about it

as for the q would ni go under too, simply no , tbh ni would be in great times for a few years as prises down south would drop like a brick and everyone would nip over the boarder to get the cheap stuff, but this wouldnt overly effect the ni ecomony as its a export driven one (to far east and china) boats industrial goods etc

metalmonkey 22-11-10 05:41 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eviltwin (Post 2426999)
Some multinationals have a base there eg HP & Intel, due to a corporation tax that's low for Europe (if Ireland raises this, it can wave these companies off to China and India).

In terms of what Britain exports to Ireland, news reports today mentioned £3,607 per person, per year in Ireland as the figure spent on British goods

Ireland did say that they wouldn't be rasing that tax.

Now that UK don't produce goods anywhere near what we used too, that we sold off well most things, what happens next time when there is no money and nothing left to sell?

davepreston 22-11-10 05:44 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by metalmonkey (Post 2427041)
Ireland did say that they wouldn't be rasing that tax.

Now that UK don't produce goods anywhere near what we used too, that we sold off well most things, what happens next time when there is no money and nothing left to sell?

it is belive that a proviso on getting the money from imf is that they raise corp tax more inline with the rest of europe (according to bbc)

Jabba 22-11-10 06:12 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
The UK has a vested interest in keeping the Irish banking system alive; for example, there's an Irish bank that issues notes in Sterling.

Doesn't seem to me to be in anyone's interest for trading partners to go bust. Tough times ahead for our Irish friends, though.

metalmonkey 22-11-10 06:17 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by davepreston (Post 2427043)
it is belive that a proviso on getting the money from imf is that they raise corp tax more inline with the rest of europe (according to bbc)

Ah okay the news reported earlier that they wanted to keep tax at the same levels, probally changed ect.

ravingdavis 22-11-10 06:31 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by davepreston (Post 2427032)
as for the q would ni go under too, simply no , tbh ni would be in great times for a few years as prises down south would drop like a brick and everyone would nip over the boarder to get the cheap stuff, but this wouldnt overly effect the ni ecomony as its a export driven one (to far east and china) boats industrial goods etc

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBC News
The Northern Ireland economy would certainly be ducking for cover. It is estimated that around 40% of exports from the North go south.

I cant help but think you are wrong there dp. The NI economy is heavily reliant on the Southern economy and would be in for dire straits indeed if things across the boarder collapsed. Also, the last thing NI needs is it's populace nipping across the boarder for cheap stuff as that would hammer domestic demand... the bread and butter for any modern economy.

maviczap 22-11-10 08:26 PM

Re: Irish mess
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by husky03 (Post 2426862)
your bang on BB- i can remember everynight at about half nine , ten o'clock the skyline in the clydevalley used to be lit up in an orange glow due to the Ravenscraig steelworks opening up the furnace type thing-what happened-just as you said , cheap imported steel resulted in the place being shut down and thousands out of work-not only the steelworkers but all the wee shops and businesses that relied on the tradesmen - still there's houses and a regeneration programme on the go-its only taken the best part of 15-20 years-i think there's a major recession to come that will make the last one seem like a blip on the radar.

+1 to what you and BB said. Maggie started the rot I think by removing the high import tariffs on cheap imports of clothing. That killed off our clothing industry in one fell swoop. The same probably goes for a lot of the other tariffs that once protected our home industries.

You only have to look at the strong european countries like Germany which still have a strong home production capacity.

All the ships that arrive from China bring loads, but take nothing but empty containers. Its the same in the USA

Bluy Blitish


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