SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

Hi Mighty org,

Just after your views on a matter, I know traffic opinions can vary wildly and it's particularly trendy to be unreasonably damning but thought I'd poll the collective anyways.

Pretty briefly, some time ago my dad was involved in an incident with a motorcycle. He's never had an impact or claim (still true at this point) in 45 years of motoring and so he's pretty pished off about the situation.

My dad was pulling out (right turn) of a side street on a bend, he edged forward to get a view of the road - traffic in the first lane was clear but there was traffic in the far lane he'd like to join so he became stationary part way out of the lane to maintain view. As he kept checking both ways traffic appeared in the lane he was already encroached on, a motorcycle was first in the queue. The motorcyclist saw him and came to a stop. At this point traffic in the far lane was clear so my dad proceeded, as he went to proceed across he did a last check/lifesaver and saw the motorcyclist had gone to go around him on the right side of the road so stopped immediately. He maybe moved 6 inches to a foot. This spooked the motorcyclist unnecessarily , and he inexplicably fell off.
My dad spoke to the guy, he had just bought the bike, the guy had no breakdown cover or anything and my old man felt a bit of pity so had him recovered. The garage deemed the bike unroadworthy (regardless of the incident, brakes were seizing and the luggage rack was cable tied on...maybe not legally relevant but gives you an idea of what may have happened) and valued the damage (caused by the falling) to the bike at around £150-£200.
My dad said feck it; my excess it £250,have £250, fix your bike and lets shake on it. They did. Additionally they each signed a receipt without prejudice which the garage owner witnessed that said no matter would go any further , and recorded a goodwill payment of £250.

Pretty predictably captain somersault has reneged on the deal and phoned an ambulance chaser. Although he didn't have my dad's details (as he ripped them up himself of his own accord after the incident was 'concluded') so he's got the police involved to use our pitifully stretched public bobbies as his own insurance assistants.
He's told the police there was an impact (when there certainly wasn't) , the police have seen both copies of the receipt but are saying they have to investigate an impact and hand over details to the insurer so the ambulance chaser can bend my dad and all insurance payers over. The police have homed in on the fact that there may not have been an impact, they say they don't have to investigate or give any details over if there wasn't (my understanding is actually that this is incorrect, but it's in my dad's favour so I'm not arguing). I've also asked the police to check the insurance database on the date, because the guy was very clear he wanted no police involvement and had admitted he'd only bought his chinese scrapheap 2 weeks prior from gumtree.


Oops, that was less brief than expected but anyway, questions are:
Can the police give my dad's details over if
1) they find he's lying about the impact/scenario
2)he's uninsured

If it goes to insurance, what do we think the odds will be? I think there's a chance it would go split decision despite the fact the bike did something ridiculous and also needlessly lost control.

And probably most importantly (on principle) is there a legal mechanism to force immediate payback of the £250 since the contract has now been broken and then let the insurance gods decide.

:grouphug:

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

Sorry no advice to give, I do fear your dad my have opened Pandora's box by taking him to the garage and by giving him money admitted guilt. But then I'm no expert.


Sounds like your best bet is to get the recovery people involved with a signed statement.
The police may also want to check if he had insurance on the day of the accident.


Maybe next time call the old bill to the scene, they can then laugh at him and your dad can go home.


Fingers crossed it all sorts itself out in the end.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

"without prejudice" means no admission of anything. Still it works both ways - the other guy has also not admitted to anything.

If the damage has been paid for, there's no outstanding debt. Therefore nothing to claim. Unless he's been injured but he'd have to prove that.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

Surely that is in the realm of a gentleman's agreement that would only count if signed between two like minded gentlemen. The other party is obviously a chancer, and out for everything the little **** can get.
I still would have called the old bill to the scene. Let them of sorted him out for riding a non roadworthy bike.
And being a clueless feckwit.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

It counts. Doesn't matter what the other party thinks. It explicitly means that even though you are making a payment you are not admitting guilt of any kind, nor can the payment be taken as such. Otherwise no payment would me made.

As for calling the old bill... hindsight is 20/20

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

re. the old bill, this is the funny bit. I only learned this after and surprised alarm bells didn't go for my dad..but my mum called the police in a panic and the guy on the motorcycle asked her to stop. He said it's fine it's fine no problem, no need for insurance or the police.
This is why I called up the police and asked them if they would please check the database.

The guy is going down the injury route, even though he stated and appeared fine at the time. I know that can change...but reading between the lines I think I know exactly what's happening...

Gentleman's agreement it was, gentleman it turns out he wasn't. Really frustrating but ho hum. I'm hoping if it does go to insurance it gets thrown out, it's a move I'd never pull - clearly dangerous; you can see and have acknowledged the car's intention to move out yet as soon as it's clear (and predictable they are about to move) you dive out in front of them. But I can imagine it isn't covered in the highway code (3 lashes for me not knowing) and thinking it may go split, and of course whiplash etc. My old man's premiums will go up and his £250 has sailed off.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

your dad committed to a manoeuvrer but got spooked which then spooked the motorcyclist who was expecting your dad to carry on.

your dad should never have offered or even given any money, this is what insurance is for and it keeps you on the legal side.

i very much doubt that given your dads insurance claims record that they will hike his premium. your dad will no doubt have protected claims discount. 45 years claim free driving history is a miracle in this day and age.

just let the incident take its course and tell your dad not to worry and let the insurance company do their stuff.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

They went for it at pretty much the same time, it was as if the bike waited for my dad to start apparently, he checked just before releasing the brake and back again as he did. My dad had started the actual maneuver (exiting side road) about 40 seconds before, the bike was no where in sight then came to my dad edging out and came to a stop. Would anyone of sound mind really stop to let a motorist out and then as soon as it's clear for them to continue the manouvre ride in front of the bonnet?


I don't think giving cash makes my dad 'not on the legal side'...only on the vulnerable side. Trusting old fool, bless him.

Aye, I think he's just ****ed off as you would be. It would be nice if he could issue some proceedings for the £250 if it goes to insurance or have it deducted from the payout just stop the crafty little so and so benefiting.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

Let insurance do is thing. They get paid to do it.
I'd produce the receipt for the works completed if/ when insurance calls. If your Dad didn't actually hit the bike then the claim would be settled as the bikes fault.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

Helmet cam is a nice thing to have. Under £100 and some are so small and light you barely notice them. Makes it a lot less variable if it comes to court.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

Your biggest problem might be that the incident happened "some time ago"as per the OP.Your dad should have informed his insurance company of the incident even if there was to be no claim.That would have covered him against every eventuality.It might also have led to a slight increase in his next premium which is why we often fail to do it.Best to be fully open about it now and hope the scroat can be proved a liar.
Incidently,you can still be liable if there is no contact between car and bike.Known as a "proximity" incident.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

True, someone pulled in front of me and I avoided them but decked the bike doing so. Insurance deemed it 50/50. Still sore about that cos it was entirely his fault.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

i may have got my wires crossed as i was under the impression the bike went round the back of the car and not the front. either way i think confusion on both parts.

i'm not saying that its illegal to offer cash i'm saying its wrong. you should never ever try and settle any motor incident by offering cash and a 'gentleman's agreement'. you pay insurance to settle these matters. always swap insurance details or take note of the other persons reg number and if possible get witness details then go to your nearest police station and report it and make sure you get an incident number, even if your in the wrong.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

Doh this is something I hadn't considered. Yes, it was a couple of months ago. My dad didn't mention to his insurer as as far as he was concerned the matter was done and dusted. Could potentially be an issue!

Yes, I'm aware of proximity incidents - this is what I was thinking when the cops thought they didn't have a duty to investigate if there was no impact... it's still an incident so I guess they do. Although in my opinion not in a scenario where everything was fine and resolved and my dad stopped to give his details and more! And this bloke ripped them up. We'll see what happens.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

No he dived in front of an emerging car which he'd stopped to allow to emerge!

You're right, sad state of affairs in my book but ho hum. Faith in humanity ... 0!
Got to admit I hate the 'you pay insurance to settle these matters' line, again you're right but I also think we pay far too much insurance because matters can't simply be sorted in this sort of manner. The slightest bump goes to insurance, incurs a processing fee, goes to their mechanics at ridiculous parts and labour costs (unnecessarily written off and sold back to owner too cheap...though I hear they are stopping this) their details are then sold off for someone to encourage them to make up injuries etc. etc. £££

I once dropped something on a girls car at work - £90 had her car picked up & bumper resprayed and she was very happy. A roof tile fell off the roof on someone's corsa causing about the same damage, courtesy car and hundreds of pounds later the guy is still paying increased premiums years later for something that wasn't even his fault. So empathise completely with my dad for wanting to believe the guy could be a decent adult about it.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

it would be great if we could settle things with gentleman's agreement's but scrotes like the one your dad has encountered fek it all up. yes its a sad state of affairs that we now live in a 'claim' society.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

The legislation that covers these incidents is Sect 170 of the Road Traffic Act and the wording is something along the lines of... "if owing to the presence of a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road (or public place) an accident occurs and injury is caused to a person other than the driver of that vehicle, or damage is caused to another vehicle, the driver of the vehicle must stop and provide their details to anyone having reasonable grounds for having them" It also goes on to say that if it involved injury to someone they must also show them their insurance details.

Please note this has nothing to do with blame or whose fault it was, it simply says that if your driving (or riding) down the road and as a result of your presence an accident occurs then this legislation applies to you..

If your dad stopped and spoke with the other party and provided his details (technically to include registration number and details of the owner if not him) then he has complied with the law. If he didn't provide the information, then the police are quite entitled to disclose it provided they are satisfied an "accident" as defined by Sect 170 occurred. If the other driver subsequently decides that they were injured then technically they are also entitled to insurance details, and again the police will provide them if your dad didn't.

If the rider really wasn't insured then he's been a bit of a prat involving the police. I say that being wildly optimistic that they will actually do their job properly..... but don't hold your breath. Most forces will simply have batted him off by providing the details and the file will be marked up "Sect 170 complied with, NFA required" This is sad, but a consequences of their resources being run down to the level they have. The real kick in the teeth is that because your dad wasn't injured there is no obligation on the rider to provide his insurance details....... On the other hand if you're lucky enough to get the file handed to some young keen probationer they might actually follow it up for you......

My advice would be to tell your dad to contact his insurance company, provide them with all of the information and encourage them as much as you can to challenge everything this chap is claiming. It will be down to simple economics, but if he's been stupid enough to really big up his claim they might just give him a hard time. Good luck.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

Thanks RH informative as per.

My dad did give his details, the receipts bear both parties' Registrations. The guy was completely uninjured at the scene, though I understand it takes a few conversations on the telephone with various 0800 numbers before you know whether whiplash has actually set in.
The police have seen the receipt, so know details were exchanged so I would argue they should stop their involvement as the legislation has already been complied with. But I see why they are doing (in genuine circumstances it would be valuable, and they don;t want to get wrapped up in the ins & outs).

In terms of young probationer, no such luck. He was pleasant enough and had remarked at how dodgy the whole situation seemed, but when I explained the motorcyclist was quite afraid of police involvement on the day and asked if he could be kind enough to check the insurance database on that date he was quite defensive "well that's my job to do"..."er...yeah, please". Think he was just touchy he hadn't already had chance to do it.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/52/section/170
If there is no injury arising from the incident the Police are under no obligation to investigate, nor is either party obliged to report it to the Police.

There may be an implied acceptance of liability due to handing over cash, but that's into the realms of civil law which is a minefield.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

A woman bopped me at a roundabout (tbf it was her right of way but she encroached into an otherwise totally clear "Keep clear" section when she didn't need to, after watching me set off to move through). I had my helmet cam on....

...11 months later I get a phone call from my insurance:

"Someones put an injury claim in against you"
"eh? What's this about?"
"September last year you hit someone"
"oh, that, no...she hit me, at about 2mph. I didn't fall off but it dented my exhaust"
"She's claiming severe neck, shoulder and limb injuries"
"Ok, well I'll send you a video of her getting out the car and flailing her arms about apologising to me, then me telling her that her breath stinks of dogsh!t and I'm going"
"err..ok"

Sent the video over. Claim denied. I also vocally pointed out how fooked up the front of her car was with damage, clearly from hitting other bikers/pedestrians/cars/lamp posts....my gobbiness paid off.

Moral of the story: I don't have an answer for you. Hope your dad wriggles out of it, but I wouldn't expect it to be a quick process, insurance companies drag their heels on purpose. Scum.

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

People are the worst. Unfortunately my dad has neither cam nor helmet :(

did you file a counter claim for nauseating breath?

Re: SMIDSY (Sorry mate I DID see you) - Insurance advice?
 

Haha, wish I could! I've had flashbacks, nausea, night terrors, a sore neck from recoiling so quickly. It really did smell like a dog crimped one off in her mouth.