Chinese execution

[Luckypants]

Originally Posted by Ed

So Mike, your point first. About not having any evidence of mental disorder. We are talking about somebody's life here, and whether or not evidence was presented at a lower court seems irrelevant to me. Given the nature of the punishment, the Chinese - or any other country that administers it, the US, Saudi Arabia, wherever you like to nominate - should always be alert to potential miscarriages of justice at any stage of the proceedings. Just because it wasn't there to start with is a big so what, the point was raised later, and the Chinese dnied access to a qualified practitioner. If they had allowed access, then liberals like me would have less to complain about.

Again Ed you seem to applying our rules to the Chinese system. True, I think they should have allowed a qualified person to assess to his state of mind, but you and I know that this would have made no difference in reality. A Chinese psychologist would have found nothing wrong (unless they like long hard holidays in a cold camp in outer Mongolia!) and a western psychologist would have been ignored. My point is that if you are being tried by another country's legal system you have to follow their rules. In this case you have to be 'mad' before the crime for it to carry weight. As far as a potential miscarriage of justice goes, like Y-C pointed out, this is a caught red-handed / bang to rights type crime so he is guilty, but I can accept that there be should mitigation. This guy is unlucky because Reprieve's attempt at mitigation does not work under the Chinese system.

But if it was me, I'd prefer the death sentence to a life term in a Chinese mental institution.

Originally Posted by Ed

On your second point, that Chinese rules apply so we should accept the position, does the mere fact that it took place in China mean that execution is justified?

Yes it does. Because those are the laws of the land in China, who are we to say their statutes / punishments are just or not? If we were Chinese citizens and felt strongly enough about it, we could protest the death sentence in general, but be prepared for that long holiday provided by the State.

We should all be mindful of the laws of countries we visit and the consequences of breaking them.

[Jayneflakes]

Amnesty Member here (have been for several years) and as I stated earlier, I do not condone the death penalty for anything.

I would suggest that our Dear Org members have a good look at the state of China before arguing that they did OK by their laws. I still stand by what I wrote earlier, the Chinese Regime is ruthless and corrupt.

This is the Statement from Amnesty International.

China: British man executed

Posted: 29 December 2009
Reacting to news that British man Akmal Shaikh was executed in China earlier this morning, Amnesty International Asia Programme Director Sam Zarifi said:
"Akmal Shaikh's execution highlights the injustice and inhumanity of the death penalty, particularly as it is implemented in China.
"Much information about the death penalty is considered a state secret, but Mr.. Shaikh's treatment seems consistent with what we know from other cases: a short, almost perfunctory trial, where not all the evidence was presented and investigated, and the death penalty applied to a non-violent crime.
"Under international human rights law, as well Chinese law, a defendant's mental health can and should be taken into account, and it doesn't seem that in this case the Chinese authorities did so.
"It's simply not enough for the Chinese authorities to say 'we did the right thing, trust us'. Now, there can be no re-assesment of evidence, no reprieve after a man's life has been taken. Amnesty International will continue to campaign for an end to the death penalty and for China to bring transparency and respect for human rights into its judicial system.
"The UK, the EU, and the rest of the world should continue to press the Chinese government to increase the transparency surrounding the death penalty in China and to improve the due process offered all defendants, particularly those facing charges punishable by death."

If you want to join up, go here.

By the way, I am not a hippy. I am a human rights campaigner and I take the freedom to simply be, very seriously. However, it is your right to think what you like, which in this country you are allowed to do.

Think on this though people.

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out for me.

As stupid as it was to smuggle in drugs, that take away what little freedom people have, the taking of life is wrong. I abhor Class A drugs, yet I cannot condone a murder by the state.

I too am a member of Amnesty International but I have a zero tolerance attitude towards drugs. I`ll gladly give my money towards helping innocent victims... women who are stoned to death for having an affair etc. these are victims who`s actions have no consequences on anyone else. In this particular case this guy wasn`t innocent and his actions could have had far reaching consequences on other human beings.

Claire - your earlier post is interesting and thought-provoking, I enjoyed reading (and re-reading) it.

Unlike a stupid, asinine comment on here (see post #50) which despite my best attempts has actually made me angry.

[Jayneflakes]

Originally Posted by Jayneflakes

As stupid as it was to smuggle in drugs, that take away what little freedom people have, the taking of life is wrong. I abhor Class A drugs, yet I cannot condone a murder by the state.

Originally Posted by Speedy Claire

In this particular case this guy wasn`t innocent and his actions could have had far reaching consequences on other human beings.

Sadly, even criminals are mistreated by the Chinese Regime and all people are entitled to proper legal representation under the Declaration of human rights.

Interesting note on Wikipedia about China and its legal system.

A total of 68 crimes are punishable by death; capital offenses include non-violent, white-collar crimes such as embezzlement and tax fraud. Execution methods include lethal injections and shooting. The inconsistent and sometimes corrupt nature of the legal system in mainland China bring into question the fair application of capital punishment there.

For those of you not up to speed on International Declaration of Human Rights, try this. As I said, even criminals have rights, despite them often stepping on the rights of those they harm.

Article 7

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.
Article 8

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.
Article 9

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.
Article 10

Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11

• Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.
• No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

The rest of the Declaration of Human Rights can be found here.

it's alright being all pro human rights and all that but what about the countless thousands the drug trade in general kill's absoloutly no sympathy.

[dizzyblonde]

In all honesty, if it stopped 'x' amount of people getting out of their heads over here, hooked/addicted etc, then so be it. End of the day it cost Britain less to sort out the mess that heroin brings, by it being stopped getting here by China. They did us all a favour. Its a nasty chain of affairs when it comes to that sort of carp. Addiction of that description causes deep misery, to those that take it, to those close to the addict, those that have thing stolen/burgaled to feed said habit. To the NHS that has to sort out the mess and get them off it.
Yes the guy has been made an example of...and even if he had some sort of mental disorder, he still knew what the stuff was...surely?

If I was in his shoes, it would be preferable to be dead than spend time in a Chinese jail or mental establishmentm, if indeed he was so much of a fruit bat.

[5hort5]

I skimmed this thread as I couldn't be arsed, about as arsed as I was when I heard he was on death row and about as arsed as I am now. The world has bigger problems than this bloke and there are better small or personal causes to look at, read and generally spend my time on. Next week no one will give a **** and this thread will be off the bottom of the page.

[ophic]

So instead of burning all the confiscated drugs in the UK, the police should pose as drug dealers, sell the drugs to the drug traffickers, and send them off to China. Problem solved.

Originally Posted by dizzyblonde

In all honesty, if it stopped 'x' amount of people getting out of their heads over here, hooked/addicted etc, then so be it. End of the day it cost Britain less to sort out the mess that heroin brings, by it being stopped getting here by China. They did us all a favour. Its a nasty chain of affairs when it comes to that sort of carp. Addiction of that description causes deep misery, to those that take it, to those close to the addict, those that have thing stolen/burgaled to feed said habit. To the NHS that has to sort out the mess and get them off it.
Yes the guy has been made an example of...and even if he had some sort of mental disorder, he still knew what the stuff was...surely?

If I was in his shoes, it would be preferable to be dead than spend time in a Chinese jail or mental establishmentm, if indeed he was so much of a fruit bat.

Dizzy...+198438589059590596565895990

Ok, I have had some alcohol, so if this is rubbish, I will edit it in the morning.

First of all Ed, I started studying psychology at degree level. Whilst under no circumstances do I proclaim to be a psychologist, I do have a keen interest and an understanding of it. I do accept your comment that I personally don't have experience of the person however, aren't most illnesses defined by the generalisms of that illness????

Secondly, with regards to the comment about not knowing if the guy had smuggled heroin before...I know how the drug trade works. I have no doubt in my mind that he had done this before. Would you give someone you didn't know millions and millions of pounds worth of something and expect them to deliver it??? No, I doubt very much that you would. You would need to trust this person beyond belief to allow them to get their hands on something with such monetary value, even if you weren't driven by greed, which drugs barons are, then you wouldn't.

I have deliberately not expressed an opinion on the death penalty as I myself am undecided on whether or not I agree with it. However, I do tend to agree with both Speedy Claire and Luckypants. On seperate points.

Speedy and I are both in jobs where we see the effect that drug addiction, in particular, heroin, has on people. Both the addict, family and the victims of addicts. I hate drugs. I have a huge interest in the drugs trade and I regularly study it. Drugs kill. they ruin lives of perfectly decent, intelligent human beings. They destroy the lives of the parents/loved ones of the human being that becomes addict to it and in some occasions, it destroys lives of people who have happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. You deal/smuggle drugs. Tough. You take what punishment is handed out to you.

Like Luckypants, I tend to think that your comments on this page are talking about how we, as Britons, see what is right or wrong. We cannot and should not apply this to any other country in the world.

With regards to the "I disagree with the death penalty as I am a Christian and therefore think we should not kill each other" comment, yes, I totally understand. However, when was the last time you met a Chinese person who was a Christian??? We cannot simply criticise the laws of other countries due to our religious beliefs. Just because some of us are Christian, doesn't mean the whole world should be!!

Regarding the access to a psychologist/psychiatrist. At the end of the day, their system dictates that it is irrelevant if they have not been previously diagnosed so whilst it may have pacified the western mob, it would really have been nothing more than a paper exercise!!!

Would you go to Saudi Arabia and steal? No. Why? Because 99.9% of the population are aware that if you are convicted of theft then your hand is chopped off! You go to another country then you live by the rules of that country.