Lack of front end grip

[coldtyres]

Hi all,

I just did a trackday last weekend and noticed that the front end would slide and recatch. It happened around the apex of corners when I would be leaning the most. As I am still a novice rider (4 track days). My friend and I swapped bikes for a session and he noticed the same thing. The bike is a stock 2000 naked, the front forks were rebuilt about four months ago but the rear shock has not been touched after 37000 miles....gulp. I bet it is in a bad state.

Any ideas as to what to do?
I was wondering whether raising the rear would help put more weight and grip on the front?
Any ideas would be appreciated
Cheers Ryan

What tyres were you using?

What pressures?

Where Tyre warmers used?

When u say novice at the front of the novice group or towards the rear?

[coldtyres]

My tyres are michelin pilot road 2's. I deflated them to 30psi for the day and didnt have tyre warmers. It was a quiet track day so they mixed the novices and the inters. I was matching most people for cornering speed but was been left behind in the braking area and down the straight. getting done on the straights. Was a great day. Got to meet Troy Bayliss. He was there taking people for the ultimate pillion rides

Sounds like the tyres causing it. If they look o.k, but are really old they won't grip as well. When I bought mine it had Avon tyres that looked fine, but came off the bike on the first wet roundabout. A copper where I work told me that if bikes get left outside over winter, and are generally old, they give false confidence.

[maviczap]

When you had the forks rebuilt did you use the OEM spring or did you change them for Hargon or something similar?

My Sv used to do exactly the same thing with the standard fork springs and oil, I'd never had this happen on any other bike I'd had before and I suspected the tyres.

I changed the tyres, but still it persists to scare the ****e out of me

However a change to Hargon progressive springs improved things no end, plus heavier fork oil.

But the best way is to fit emulators & better springs or a GSXR front end, which is what I did in the end.

The Sv suspension (front & rear) is very basic at best and built to a budget.

Yorkie Chris is the resident Org suspension engineer and he could advise you what to do for the best. But its not tyres

[Red Herring]

I think you need to be a little bit careful about what you blame here. A proper front end slide isn't something you would have repeated and got away with very often, even on a track day, especially, with all due respect, riding at your level in the novice group. Sometimes the front can feel nervous and twitchy which makes you think it's sliding, and this can be down to a number of things, some of which are nothing to do with the front of the bike at all. The first things to check if you have any suspicions about the bikes handling are the basics.

1. Are the tyres in reasonable condition and matched. This means are they fairly new (less than two years old), and have they still got a fairly original profile. Rear tyres tend to square off, fronts wear into a V shape. Both tyres should still have a nice round profile if possible. Are they the same make/model (sounds like yours are). You can mix front and rear tyres from different brands etc but it's not the best move when starting out. Check pressures are about right. 30 cold front and rear is fine if you are riding hard enough to bring them up to pressure, but check them when hot and aim for somewhere about 32/36 (but do check with tyre manufactures, my Dunlops run at 27f/19r hot)

2. Check all your suspension is moving freely by bouncing both ends up and down. Rear linkages can easily seize if not looked after. You want some nice smooth and quiet movement (no knocks, rattles or hisses). Softly sprung suspension isn't a huge problem provided it's evenly damped. Does the front go up and down at roughly the same speed/resistance throughout the travel? If you push down on the seat does the bike rise and fall level? A knackered shock will mean the back bounces around really quickly, knackered forks either have no damping (bounce a lot) or really uneven action (full of sludge). Obviously oil leaking out of anywhere is not good!

3. Check the headstock and swingarm bearings. Get someone to pull the bike up onto the sidestand by pulling on the tank/frame and then kneel in front of the bike and shake the bottom of the fork legs. There shouldn't be any knocking at the headstock. Turn the bars both ways, the movement should be nice and smooth and not tight at all.
Likewise with the swingarm, pull the back wheel off the ground and check for movement. Whilst you're at it check the wheel bearings by spinning the wheels and trying to rock them vertically.

If all of that seems OK then I would look at how you are riding it. Naked bikes with wide handlebars can be quite sensitive mid corner, especially if you're going quite fast and holding onto the bars a bit to tightly. Are you braking right up to the apex and then releasing them a bit quickly causing the front to unload? Obviously trick suspension is very nice but you would have to be getting seriously quick to start to appreciate the benefit.

[maviczap]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

I think you need to be a little bit careful about what you blame here. A proper front end slide isn't something you would have repeated and got away with very often, even on a track day.

Having riden quite a few bikes in my time, the standard Sv front end is the only one I've had slide out on me (or step out) Partially due to the orrible Metzeler Z4 which might have had a spot on it from where it used to stand outside from the previous keeper. Its the only bike I've owned that I've had NO confidence in standard trim, even my Cx500 felt more planted

Originally Posted by Red Herring

Obviously trick suspension is very nice but you would have to be getting seriously quick to start to appreciate the benefit

But reliativly cheap upgrades of Hargon springs on the front and a 2nd hand GSXR shock on the rear would improve things 10 fold, especially as the original shock has done 37k. Mine was knackered at 11k

I don't have the depth of experience to really advise you but from my personal experience on my last track days I was advised to take the tyre pressures down to 30 by the team at Brands when I rode my SV there on road tyres. they were fine no problem and I wasn't the fastest nor the slowest.

Later when I last rode my track SRAD I felt the front a bit twitchy at first running at 30psi, the tyre fitter there took it down to 24psi front and back. I was amazed but it fixed it, it was solid for 2 days on the track after that.

So all all of the advice from the others, but don't be afraid to experiment a bit with tyre pressures.

[coldtyres]

Cheers Guys.

The tyres are four and a bit years old. I left the bike in the shed for two and a half years. When i got it out earlier this year the fork seals were gone so I got the bike shop to redo the seals they said they changed the oil as well, i guess for a similar weight oil? I will check out the things you mentioned Red herring re: the suspension and steering.
The front only slid twice during the track day. They were small slides before she regripped. I have had a much bigger front end slide a few years ago riding in the wet i rode through a small stream across the road at about 20mph on a bend the front slid a fair way then regripped. I got off the bike and went to have a look and there was a sand that had washed onto the road with the water. Anyway the two little slides on the track day were only small in comparision but they still ruined my confidence.

I need to do something to the bike before my next track day.

[maviczap]

Tyres will go off big time if left on concrete, depends what your shed floor is?

After 4 years a new set of tyres wouldn't be a bad idea