Menezes health and safety hearing

[Ruffy]

Originally Posted by Pedrosa

It has brought the activities of the police into the public domain and I suggest the general public will no longer accept the excuse of "we were simply doing our job." It has been shown that accountability is demanded and should be provided transparently.

The spin you refer to was largely generated by the police themselves who frankly LIED and this has been shown. Any spin on the matter was as expected created by the media. In hindsight the front page headline of The Sun newspaper that hailed the killing of a "known" terrorist the day after the shooting,now appears grossly inaccurate and at least hysterical. I certainly do not agree that this was a court case which would have gained anyone politically.

I do not accept your view that all of this procedure was for nought.

I really hope that you're right and I have no problem with you being more optomistic than me. However, I have a feeling that in a few years time this will be nothing more than a vague memory, of politicians simply showing that some justice would be done. But is any individual going to feel any punishment? I thought that was the aim, to bring someone to account for their individual actions.

For the Londoners reading, will you now feel better about your personal safety when out and about?

I haven't read all the theard to much to go through, but what I find it comes down damed if you do, dammed if you don't. If nothing had been done and a bomb had gone off it doesn't bear thinking about.

I'm not defending or agreeing with any point of view, but no seems to think about this.

The whole incident was tragic, people seem forget the officers involved and how it affects them.

I saw someone with a hole in their head a few days back, needless to say I didn't sleep very well that night.

[northwind]

Originally Posted by bluethunder

If nothing had been done and a bomb had gone off it doesn't bear thinking about.

I'm not defending or agreeing with any point of view, but no seems to think about this.

I've said it a couple of times already in the thread, but, if Menezes had been a bomber launching an attack, he would have succeeded- before he was killed he travelled on a crowded bus, through a busy station and onto an underground train. He'd also have had plenty of opportunity to detonate any device when the police boarded the train. So, this doesn't really apply, they both failed by shooting him, and failed to prevent a suspected bomber from being able to carry out an attack.

Originally Posted by bluethunder

I haven't read all the theard to much to go through, but what I find it comes down damed if you do, dammed if you don't. If nothing had been done and a bomb had gone off it doesn't bear thinking about.

I'm not defending or agreeing with any point of view, but no seems to think about this.

The whole incident was tragic, people seem forget the officers involved and how it affects them.

I saw someone with a hole in their head a few days back, needless to say I didn't sleep very well that night.

i think the case was to do with the handling by the police rather than the death. The fact that if he had be a bomber why was he put in so may situations when he was surrounded by people where he could have caused huge harm

i think what the police did that day was the correct thing to do. they took action based on the intelligence they had received. the problem was the intelligence was wrong thats not the polices fault thats down to the intell services they should be held accountable.

alot of fuss as been made of the amount of shots fired. there was more than one officer what they supposed to do flip a coin or go eeni meeni miny mo?

and regarding the supposed ROE violation

targets like what he was supposed to be need to be taken down quickly and effectively to minimise the danger to the public. shouting armed police put the________ down wont work with them.

i am not a police officer nor do i know anyone who is. i just think what they do is very brave and they shouldnt be treated like this. yeah they got it wrong and a innocent man got killed and my sympathy goes out to his family, but what if they didnt shoot and the intelligence was right?

Originally Posted by barmy.biker

i think what the police did that day was the correct thing to do. they took action based on the intelligence they had received. the problem was the intelligence was wrong thats not the polices fault thats down to the intell services they should be held accountable.

alot of fuss as been made of the amount of shots fired. there was more than one officer what they supposed to do flip a coin or go eeni meeni miny mo?

and regarding the supposed ROE violation

targets like what he was supposed to be need to be taken down quickly and effectively to minimise the danger to the public. shouting armed police put the________ down wont work with them.

i am not a police officer nor do i know anyone who is. i just think what they do is very brave and they shouldnt be treated like this. yeah they got it wrong and a innocent man got killed and my sympathy goes out to his family, but what if they didnt shoot and the intelligence was right?

I am sorry but the "what if" in your argument simply cannot be used here. I also agree that a witch hunt for individual officers was wrong as they were placed in a most unenviable position by dreadfull procedures,(or lack of them) and misinformation.

They were though so incompetant that they almost shot one of their own plain clothed detctives! Like it's not a good idea for each to know the other playetrs on the team?

You may recall that to justify what had gone on, the police fed information that stated the suspect was carrying a rucksack and wearing a long coat. these were two most outrageous lies. proven by the leaking of photographs taken in the train carriage.

and also the 'what if he was a terrorist' argument falls apart after they let him get on a crowded bus & tube

Originally Posted by gettin2dizzy

and also the 'what if he was a terrorist' argument falls apart after they let him get on a crowded bus & tube

Good point young sir.

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by barmy.biker

i think what the police did that day was the correct thing to do.

Killing an innocent man was the right thing to do? What a bizzare point of view

Originally Posted by barmy.biker

they took action based on the intelligence they had received. the problem was the intelligence was wrong thats not the polices fault thats down to the intell services they should be held accountable.

Ah i see what you mean now....only problem is that those same intel officers ARE police or working for the police whether originaly from SAS or MI5/6.

Originally Posted by barmy.biker

i am not a police officer nor do i know anyone who is. i just think what they do is very brave and they shouldnt be treated like this. yeah they got it wrong and a innocent man got killed and my sympathy goes out to his family, but what if they didnt shoot and the intelligence was right?

thnaks christ you werent on that jury then mate. I guess the judge made the summing up he did for the benefit of people like you who may have been on the jury. What the cops do is what they do, not a single one who wears the uniform does so without choice. They get paid to do a job they chose to do so dont go crying for them on that account.

The simple fact is that the entire operation was a mess and an innocent man died because of it. If it wasnt for that very conciencous(sp) person who worked at the IPCC leaking that photo early on then none of us may ever have known an innocent man was killed. the cops could have covered it up very nicely thank you.
The whole investigation stinks a bit too since Metroline say there was nothign wrong wih the CCTV from that carriage and the cops who took it for evidence knew that too...so how come now its faound to be faulty and cant be played in court. What does it show that is so incriminating to the police they had to destroy it i wonder?

i hope the De Menezes family can now petition the European criminal court to allow a criminal trial of the officers based on a guilty verdict under the health and Safety trial. Afer all if they were guilty of not looking out for him or the general public then those who made the flawed decisions should be accountable to the law since a man was unlawfully killed.

Originally Posted by Spiderman

Killing an innocent man was the right thing to do? What a bizzare point of view


Ah i see what you mean now....only problem is that those same intel officers ARE police or working for the police whether originaly from SAS or MI5/6.



thnaks christ you werent on that jury then mate. I guess the judge made the summing up he did for the benefit of people like you who may have been on the jury. What the cops do is what they do, not a single one who wears the uniform does so without choice. They get paid to do a job they chose to do so dont go crying for them on that account.

The simple fact is that the entire operation was a mess and an innocent man died because of it. If it wasnt for that very conciencous(sp) person who worked at the IPCC leaking that photo early on then none of us may ever have known an innocent man was killed. the cops could have covered it up very nicely thank you.
The whole investigation stinks a bit too since Metroline say there was nothign wrong wih the CCTV from that carriage and the cops who took it for evidence knew that too...so how come now its faound to be faulty and cant be played in court. What does it show that is so incriminating to the police they had to destroy it i wonder?

i hope the De Menezes family can now petition the European criminal court to allow a criminal trial of the officers based on a guilty verdict under the health and Safety trial. Afer all if they were guilty of not looking out for him or the general public then those who made the flawed decisions should be accountable to the law since a man was unlawfully killed.

Spidey makes many a valid point. Particularly that the police are there to protect the general public. Juan Charles de Menezes never did anything to remove himself from being classified as anything else. Therefore it was a member of the general public that was slain. It could have been you, are you still as charitable with your forgiveness towards the police in this case?