140 mph Police "Follow"

Courtesy of the link provided by Red Herring...

He also reminded himself that speed alone is not sufficient to found a conviction for dangerous driving; the speed had to be considered in the context of all the circumstances.

That is what the judge (in that case) deemed necessary because of the relevant laws surrounding the case. On that basis, I would consider the video evidence in this thread to demonstrate dangerous driving on behalf of the police officer.

There are simply too many mistakes made by the officer (primarily the overtake on a "blind" left bend, when he finds a bike coming the other way).

Personally, I think that the officer in the video from this thread should be subject to the exact same process that PC Milton was. Let a judge decide, and then the officer can appeal if necessary/desired.

After all, PC Milton was apparently acting on advice from superiors in order to "determine the handling characteristics of the vehicle" - surely the controller of this incident can only offer advice based on the radio information they are presented (which was very little in this video).

[Red Herring]

Originally Posted by Biker Biggles

Or are you suggesting that the rider in the video was not dangerous in law because he was a class 1 trained rider,so the normal rules dont apply?
If so I dont buy that.I do agree that highly trained class one drivers and riders have greater skills and abilities than the rest of us,but not to the extent that they often like to think they do.In this case(the video above)I think the "follow" was high risk,and went on far beyond what was acceptable,and I believe that this probably happened because of the attitudes that exist among the class one fraternity.There is a certain hubris and superiority complex here that I believe is the cause of many accidents in the police(and other emergency services).These people are by no means infallible,and I speak as someone who has seen the results of that fallibility.

I'm inclined to agree with just about all of that. The purpose of the link was to demonstrate to those saying that because the police officer was riding at the same speed as the accused then he to should be prosecuted for dangerous driving, and what the link effectively says is that a court would have to consider the officers training in such an event and therefore such a prosecution is likely to fail.

I do however believe that the follow was excessive, that the officer took risks that were not speed associated, and in short got it wrong on occasion. He should have aborted much earlier, or made attempts to get the motorcyclist stopped.

[BanannaMan]

Originally Posted by the_lone_wolf

will they do it if you're white as well?

Yes...it's 2008 here in Virginia.

I can't speak for all of the US but where I live you'll find most black/white racism to still exist mostly among only the poorest of people, both black and white.
We have members of all races active in law enforcement, had a black governer here, and now have a black man running for president.

In fact if it comes down to a shooting....you're probably more likely to be shot if you are white because no one is going to be crying racism afterwards.
For the most part, racial violence of any type ended here in the late 60's and early 70's.
Police here target crimnals of any/all races.

Originally Posted by Red Herring

I do however believe that the follow was excessive, that the officer took risks that were not speed associated, and in short got it wrong on occasion. He should have aborted much earlier, or made attempts to get the motorcyclist stopped.

[flymo]

I think this copper was out of order. Imagine losing a relative in a collision with the police rider? Then being told he had been following with no attempt to stop the other rider for such a long time just to gather an evidence video.

Totally no need for it at all beyond the first few minutes.

The rider in front deserves all he gets by the way.

Originally Posted by Red Herring

I'm inclined to agree with just about all of that. The purpose of the link was to demonstrate to those saying that because the police officer was riding at the same speed as the accused then he to should be prosecuted for dangerous driving, and what the link effectively says is that a court would have to consider the officers training in such an event and therefore such a prosecution is likely to fail.

I do however believe that the follow was excessive, that the officer took risks that were not speed associated, and in short got it wrong on occasion. He should have aborted much earlier, or made attempts to get the motorcyclist stopped.

Are you saying that you believe the police rider's actions were excessive, but not excessive enough to warrant a case for dangerous driving, when the circumstance of his police training is taken into account?

I actually think his actions were enough in excess - I think what a lot of people here are saying (me included) is that the police rider's actions were dangerous even if he had been trained (either he went far beyond recommended limits, or took approaches that weren't part of the training he had received). If that were the case, that would be highlighted in any dangerous driving case against the police rider and the prosecution should succeed.

[Red Herring]

Actually when pushed I'd be more inclined to say I didn't see enough from either rider to go straight for a dangerous driving charge. The subject rider (actually both riders) were way over an appropriate speed through the built up areas, and I certainly think he needed banning several times over for that, but the rest of the ride was just untidy rather than dangerous. There were a couple of occasions when the police rider positioned himself better than the subject with regard to some of the nearside dangers, but there was certainly also a couple of times when I thought the subject timed his overtake better than the police rider, in fact I'm not convinced I saw a tight one from the subject (however the camera perspective is notoriously deceptive). What I do know is the police rider comented that the subject had seen him in his mirrors and if anything this seemed to make him ride faster, clear signs to the officer that he should have aborted, especially as he wasn't trying to get the rider stopped. I also think that if the subject hadn't been there, and the police rider had in fact been on a marked bike attending an emergency, then his speeds generally would have been very similar in most of the places. I don't think the speeds themselves were dangerous in their own right, provided the rider had recognised and considered the potential for the dangers associated with travelling at those speeds, and that is where the police rider is allowed to rely on his training and expertise.

Originally Posted by Red Herring

The purpose of the link was to demonstrate to those saying that because the police officer was riding at the same speed as the accused then he to should be prosecuted for dangerous driving, and what the link effectively says is that a court would have to consider the officers training in such an event and therefore such a prosecution is likely to fail.

I think what many people have been saying is that the police officer was taking unnecessary risks for no apparent reason. I have no problem with the police taking calculated risks to apprehend dangerous drivers, and their training is designed to try and mitigate those risks, but the purpose of such a long pursuit without attempting a stop are not evident.

Originally Posted by Red Herring

Actually when pushed I'd be more inclined to say I didn't see enough from either rider to go straight for a dangerous driving charge. The subject rider (actually both riders) were way over an appropriate speed through the built up areas, and I certainly think he needed banning several times over for that, but the rest of the ride was just untidy rather than dangerous. There were a couple of occasions when the police rider positioned himself better than the subject with regard to some of the nearside dangers, but there was certainly also a couple of times when I thought the subject timed his overtake better than the police rider, in fact I'm not convinced I saw a tight one from the subject (however the camera perspective is notoriously deceptive). What I do know is the police rider comented that the subject had seen him in his mirrors and if anything this seemed to make him ride faster, clear signs to the officer that he should have aborted, especially as he wasn't trying to get the rider stopped. I also think that if the subject hadn't been there, and the police rider had in fact been on a marked bike attending an emergency, then his speeds generally would have been very similar in most of the places. I don't think the speeds themselves were dangerous in their own right, provided the rider had recognised and considered the potential for the dangers associated with travelling at those speeds, and that is where the police rider is allowed to rely on his training and expertise.

Fair enough - I'm in two minds myself, I really need to rewatch it. Earlier I mentioned I didn't see anything too OTT, but above of course I said I think it's enough for a DD charge on both.

What I suspected was that I missed some details - the speed itself I had no problem with, but I think I would need to review the interaction/effect with/on other road users, and also the behaviour around junctions, etc, which I think is the most vulnerable/dangerous point.

[ethariel]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

I also think that if the subject hadn't been there, and the police rider had in fact been on a marked bike attending an emergency, then his speeds generally would have been very similar in most of the places.

If this had been the video of a police bike with BIG BLUE flashing lights and a BIG LOUD SIREN then this topic would have been mostly dead.

I'm sure this is not a one off event, just probably the first one to become public (afterall in a similar situation, wouldn't it be great to know you can go hooning off after someone and ride any way you want with no fear of porsecution?) slagging match.

A couple of hundred quid for some blue strobes and a siren and most of this ill feeling and barracking could have been avoided.

Sure the person being 'followed' may have gone even more hell for leather to get away, but then they knew exactly who he was, where he lived and how often he did the same thing so could easily have aborted while a local car sat at his house to say hi with cuffs.

IMHO, this whole incident is simply someone getting his jollies on an unmarked bike coz it's fun.

EDIT - Because they are trained as a Class 1 then this kind of behaviour could be considered 'Safe'? If so what's your position on WRC drivers doing handbrake runs at 100+ through housing estates and 150+ on motorways and claiming 'They are world class drivers so know what they are doing'?

[flymo]

Originally Posted by ethariel

If this had been the video of a police bike with BIG BLUE flashing lights and a BIG LOUD SIREN then this topic would have been mostly dead.

+1