Any Constructive Comments Re. the Abersoch Rideout

Yeah, we didn't communicate or execute TEC between us very well to be honest.

On the way to Bala, where Daryl was TEC, I came past Pete marking a right hand turn into a junction and waved to say thanks as I turned right. Pete thought I was waving him on and rode after me then overtook, not his fault, just that we didn't have a system defined when we left Shrewsbury. Knowing I wasn't last and the junction was now unmarked I pulled a 'u' turn in the next farm entrance and blasted back up the road just in time to see Raving Davis miss the junction, turned left to chase him down and 'u' turn him round, and got back to the junction just in time to stop Melody coming the other way, who just missed the junction and had to 'u' turn as well. Gathered everyone at the junction and realised we had lost UKI. He had seen me from a few hundred yards back trying to point Melody down the right turn before she missed it, and taken it as an instruction to turn right down an earlier turning, also signposted Bala. Daryl knew these roads merged, so we arranged second man drop off with me leading and Daryl TEC, and found UKI waiting at the next junction. Caught up with the rest of the party waiting for us at Bala. This had happened because we didn't have a defined marker system at that point.

There was another occasion before lunch (I think Portmahog) I ended up at the back and waved two markers on, because although I found myself at the back, and I was 95% sure I was at the back, I wasn't nominated TEC and those markers would have sat there all day waiting for TEC, just like Claire did when she was left behind. After that I had to do a forward recce to check everyone was in front of me and confirm the 5% of doubt I had in my mind that I was actually last and didn't need to go and recover anybody (so if I came blasting past you it wasn't 'cos I was being an idiot, I was getting to the front to check that I had seen the right number of bikes in the group and we weren't missing anyone). This had happened because either we didn't have a nominated TEC at that point (I don't know), or the TEC had allowed himself to work forwards in the rideout through a town, by passing markers, but then not stopping and inviting them past him in order to stay at the back. So if we had a TEC he was 3 or 4 riders from the back, with the markers he had passed in behind him, but front of me, and this left me at the very back.

Really we should carry a hi-viz for the TEC to wear. I think I might put "TEC" in big black lettering on one of mine, for use on rideouts when I'm TEC and for anybody else who might want to borrow it.

The other thing I said at the petrol station when Claire was lost, is maybe somebody should have gone back with Mike, when he went to look for Claire. If got forbid he had had to pull her bike out of a hedge, etc. The are a whole bunch of scenarios when an extra pair of hands might have come in handy. Also when your looking for a lost rider, you often get presented with a choice at a junction where they could have gone wrong. Did they go that way by mistake, or are they still further back up the route somewhere, and you have to make a judgement call over which way you are going to go in your search for them. If you have 2 or 3 riders, you can leave one rider behind at that junction, take the wrong turning and go hunting for them, and if the lost rider are still further back along the route, eventually they'll come across the rider you've left behind, whilst you are away barking up the wrong tree.

Originally Posted by christopher

I would also say it was clearly the first proper ride of the year for quite a few, as there was a lot of silly behaviour like crossing solid white lines and hopping into the smallest of gaps between cars and causing them to brake (sometimes heavily) on the rider behind instead of waiting 30 seconds for a decent opportunity to pass which wouldn't have inconvenienced anybody.

There was a fair bit of silly overtakes going on on Sunday, what I mean by that is ones where the driver coming the other way was faced head on with a bike, and had to brake to allow the bike to get back onto his own side of the road. I'm not counting ones where oncoming drivers were flashing headlights, because most of those were miles away, didn't need to change speed or direction at all, and were overreacting, they don't realise how quickly a bike can be out past and back in again with bags of room to spare. Having said that though, we are sometimes too quick to judge other people's overtakes, when actually the view from inside their helmet and what forward obs they have got a glimpse of in advance, is completely different to yours.

Originally Posted by 5hort5

where's the sticky thread with the rules of ride outs, unwritten or otherwise? (and if unwritten can someone write them please)

They are written, but there is no set of "rules" as such. We are all adults. There is more than one type of marker system in operation across the org anyway, drop off, second man drop off, nominated markers, and if there is just three or four of you out of a Sunday afternoon, you don't really need a marker system.

[5hort5]

indeed we are all adults but some adults like me don't know this stuff and would like to learn but tbh, by the sound of it from all of the above, a ride out doesn't sound fun

Hey don`t let it put you off.... believe me rideouts are great fun and if rules are given in advance of us all setting off there shouldn`t be any problems with lost riders etc. The marking system and TEC are vital to the smooth running and is extremely easily picked up as it`s not rocket science.

If you allow a minor setback on what was the first big rideout of the season to put you off then you`re gonna be a missing out on a whole lot of fun.

I think a briefing has to be the way to go - even if you outright say that you're using a particular system, there are little variations which are worth mentioning (do you mark roundabout exits even when going "straight", does the TEC allow you in in front or expect you to join behind and pass them and so on).

That also gives you an opportunity to say where you will be stopping to regroup, if required, and where you're taking breaks at on longer rides. You can then get an idea if there are any people who aren't confident with your version of the system and fill in the details.

I think that covers all the issues I can remember seeing on rideouts...

Originally Posted by 5hort5

indeed we are all adults but some adults like me don't know this stuff and would like to learn but tbh, by the sound of it from all of the above, a ride out doesn't sound fun

Definitely don't be put off or think ride outs aren't fun, they are immensely (sp!) fun. I would say as long as you go prepared with a map/description of the route and mindset to ride at a pace that you are comfortable with anyone can enjoy a ride out.

The comments made above about the TEC, marking etc are just tweaks that can be made for next time. Most, if not all the people on Sunday would have known the 'protocol', but as Christopher has said with it being the first real group ride of the season for a lot of the attendees and maybe an assumption on all parts that people knew who was doing what it fell down slightly. It certainly didn't spoil the day though I'm sure (for me it definitely didn't).

I can't speak for everyone (but i'm sure he covered everyone), but Ed did provide a 1-1 description of the next leg at every stop. I particularly remember his and Skeetly's comments of the long left hander at the top of the lake before Trawsfynnd before we left Bala. What a corner that is

[maviczap]

Originally Posted by 5hort5

where's the sticky thread with the rules of ride outs, unwritten or otherwise? (and if unwritten can someone write them please)

Here's what Rictus posted up in our EAR spring rideout thread about rideout proceedure. Most of us were used to the marking system, but we had some newbies out with us. No one got left behind, although we did take a wrong turn here and there. But it wouldn't be an EAR rideout if it wasn't

Originally Posted by rictus01

I've submitted them before, but can't now find them.

Basically there are four systems for group riding, depending on who / how many and how well known the riders in the group are.

Rider Behind in Mirrors Method
(Sometimes called “Last Man in Mirrors”)

Theory:-

The idea is if every ride keeps the one behind in his mirrors then no one should ever get lost

In Practice:-

The practical application of this is slightly different, as riding speeds differ and road conditions make keeping visual contact problematic, the system used is to flexibly apply it, this means on roads where there isn’t any obvious turn offs you can pull away from the rider behind and travel at your own speed, only slowing or stopping BEFORE any major junction, the rider in front will have done the same and pulled away indicating which way to go, as soon as you see the rider behind and are sure they can see which way you are turning, you are free to proceed.

Benefits:-

This is a good flexible system for small ride outs, requiring minimal instruction and needing no one but the Leader and back marker to know the route.

Limitations:-

As it’s down to each rider to apply the system it only takes one rider not doing it to break the group, becomes more fragile on larger group.


The Marker System

What is The Marker System?

Each turn, junction or stop along the route will be marked such that the route will be clear to all riders. The rideout, or each section of the rideout, will be led by a specific rider. All rideout members play a part in the rideout routing by being Markers as required. Two specific jobs will have to be decided in advance: Ride Leader and Tail End*. Ride Leader will usually have either route knowledge or directions. Tail End will stay at the very rear of the ride and will need to be immediately recognisable to all rideout members.

How Is It Done?

Ride Leader follows route and when necessary, using a clear and predetermined signal, indicates to the immediately following rider a point in the route requiring a Marker. Instructed Marker will stop somewhere safe and visible and indicate to all following rideout members the necessary route. Marker will wait until Tail End passes and immediately rejoin rideout overtaking Tail End as soon as is safely and reasonably possible. In this way all members will cycle through the group and eventually become a Marker.
Ride Leader will at all times ensure that he or she has sufficient available riders behind them to act as Markers when necessary, if there are several junctions in quick succession it must be certain that there are enough Markers, if not, then a stop must be made to allow the group to close up.
Tail End must in a certain way be recognisable, this may be through a distinctive bike or piece of clothing, if the rideout will involve riders not well known to each other this is particularly so. If none of the certain attendees has a particularly distinctive bike or gear, the rideout organiser should ensure that something clearly noticeable is to hand, perhaps a Hi-Vis or orange novice jacket or similar, it's a good idea to have something suitable anyway – this means one person doesn't always have to be Tail End.

Benefits:

This is a very flexible system, the rideout can become visually separated without problems – excepting the Ride Leader, there is no absolute need to keep other riders in sight, (although having a view of other rideout members clearly inspires confidence). With a group that is confident with this system the Ride Leader can even decide the route along the way – there is no need to to have a predetermined route.

Possible Problems:

Markers leaving before Tail End passes. As long as the system is adhered to, no-one need be concerned, however, due to the inherent flexibility of this system, a rideout covering any great distance or involving riders of differing abilities can become separated, this can lead to Markers thinking they've been left behind. Every effort must be made to ensure that all members will carry out the marking correctly and can therefore be confident that no-one will be forgotten.


*Or, if you follow the cycling: Lanterne Rouge.

The Modified Marker System

What Is The Modified Marker System?

In essence it is very similar to the Marker System, the only significant change being that instead of all rideout members taking turns as Markers, a predetermined set of riders will make up a Marker Group.

How Is It Done?

Members of the Marker Group will preferably have knowledge of the route. They will ride behind the Leader and be instructed by suitable signals to mark the route at junctions etc. When the Tail End has passed, the Marker will rejoin the rideout and overtake right back through to the front of the rideout and resume a position in the Marker Group. They will need to be riders capable of making safe, smooth and untroubled progress through the body of the rideout, so as to rejoin the Marker Group behind the Ride Leader to mark when instructed.

Benefits:

This a good system for inexperienced riders or those lacking in confidence, for those riders who are not Marker Group members all that's needed is to follow the route indicated. There is no pressure on them to fulfil any function. As with the Marker System the group can get visually separated without problems, this is useful if the rideout involves members of differing abilities

Possible Problems:

As with the Marker System the Marker Group must wait for the Tail End or the group will get broken up. Ride Leader must ensure that there are sufficient members of the Marker Group such that there will always be someone available even if there are several points to be marked in quick succession, a stop may be necessary if this is not so.


Town Group Riding/ Organized stops


Riding though towns or heavy congestion can prove problematic with a group of motorcyclists as they are able to negotiate the traffic at different speeds according to ability and size of bike, also the problem of groups being broken up by turnings / traffic lights or roundabouts, has to be addressed.

Theory:-
Riding in close proximity to each other to minimize group fragmentation.

Keeping a visible link between the sections of the group and where possible consolidating it
What’s to be done if you can’t keep the group linked.

In Practice:-

The practical application of riding in close proximity is to use the width of the road and ride abreast in staggered formation, giving everyone around the same distance they would normal have, yet a bike half that distance to the side of them, this means the whole group will be 50% shorter in overall length.

The group will at some point be broken by traffic / junctions / lights or something else, It’s not practical to have the whole group wait after a junction for a couple of riders so a single rider will find a safe position to wait and observe until such time as the following riders are approaching then pull away before them (as in the Rider behind in Mirrors method).

Though town the leader needs to keep an eye on the general cohesion of the group and if opportunity arises (as in a car park/ large bus stop or such) stop and consolidate before proceeding. Sometimes this isn’t possible so prior to entering a potential congestion area an arranged meeting point and time should be established with the rear marker.

Benefits:-

Adopting close riding practice through town has two main benefits,
The group overall length is reduce
Other traffic is less likely to ingress between the riders

Limitations:-

Individual ability is a major factor as some won’t have used their bikes for commuting so be a little wary of traffic, this can lead to significant brakes in the group and it’s up to the ride leader to assess when this is happening and address it.

Also these might be of benefit,

The Rider Briefing

What is a rider briefing?
The Rider briefing is an opportunity to deliver information to thoughs participating on a ride-out, also for the ride-out leader to gauge experience levels within the group and if needed pick a rear marker for the ride.

It coordinates all the participants on how the ride-out will work, timings, and stops /end locations.

Agreed actions to cover possible problems

Basically everyone should know what’s going on and what to do during the ride-out.

What should it contain?
Introduction of ride leader and rear marker, also the marker riders in the “Modified Marker System. (Also any other people for special reasons, medically trained, mechanically trained, even if someone is filming). Identify these people by Name/Bike & crash helmet (you can’t see faces when they are riding).

What to do if anyone has a problem on the ride, this could be simple hand signals or involving Identified members to help (pass on mobile numbers for peace of mind to those who want it).

Introduction of the members of the ride-out (this is where the organizers can gauge experience and get the number of riders on the ride). And helps the group “jell”.

Riding Etiquette, what is expected, state whether overtaking is allowed, and if so with consideration. (Signaled overtakes or not).

Mention Speed and riders should maintain their own speed and not feel pressurized into pushing their limits; ride-outs aren’t the place for that

What method will be used and everyone understand it.

Exit policy, if someone wants to leave to ride-out before the end point, normally this would be a case of stopping at the side of the road and waiting for the rear marker to arrive, reporting to him (or her) and then passing this on to the leader when he can.

A brief summery of the route (although this should have been made available beforehand).

Start time, the time the ride-out will leave the start location (everyone should have filled up beforehand).

Planned stops and time the ride-out will be leaving those.

End point (not always the same as start location)

Why have one?

Assuming everyone knows what’s going on and where they are going on which route, is probably the single biggest cause of ride-outs not working and riders getting lost, it also helps if everyone is using the same method.

“Telling someone something they already know doesn’t hurt, but does make sure everyone knows the same thing.”

What happens if you don’t?

Sometime, you’ll get away with it, but more often than not it’ll mean stopping more frequently or even going back for people, or even loosing them altogether.

“In short it makes the whole ride more problematic”.


Delivering a Rider briefing.

Things you will need to get across to thoughs on the ride-out
• Method to be used – which method you will be using that day
• Riding Etiquette – what is and isn’t acceptable (overtaking/speed/ road position)
• Start time – the time the ride-out will leave ( no exceptions)
• Route – copies of maps or verbal instruction
• Stop point – where you will stop and for how long
• End Point – where the ride-out will end (not always the same as start)
• Rear market – identify the rear marker to the group by name/helmet & bike
• Exit policy – explain who needs to know if any rider decides to leave the ride-out
• Medical/mechanical emergencies – explain what (if any) cover is available
• Contacts – exchange of Mobile numbers if needed
• Rider numbers – make sure the leader & back markerknow the number of rides in the group.

Group Riding Etiquette

What does this mean?

It could perhaps be best defined as some simple courtesies to your fellow rideout members such that everybody can feel good about their ride and their place in the ride. Your conduct should affect your fellow ride members as little as is realistically possible.

How is it done?

Space:

Give your fellow riders space. This is paramount and cannot be overstated, you most likely don't like it when someone rides or drives very close behind you, so take care not to do it to others. When riding in a group you will clearly need to be aware of the rider in front of you and the rider behind you. If you're close to the rider in front she or he will very likely spend a greater part of their attention in thinking about where you are rather than looking ahead, this really does cause accidents, it also distracts them from their enjoyment of the ride - not good manners at the very least. Adjust your position such that you are no closer than is necessary, this also means that you will be free to enjoy the ride without constantly dabbing at the brakes or getting in and out of the throttle unnecessarily.

Speeds:

When in a group speeds will almost certainly reduce from that which you might achieve when alone. Think about this before you agree to join a group rideout, it may be frustrating to you to ride an enjoyable road at a speed you consider low, if this is a problem, it's your problem and you most likely shouldn't be present. Be realistic and honest about yourself and your fellow riders, if you think you're likely to get frustrated at the pace, you might become a source of friction in the group at least and possibly even a risk to yourself and others, your riding will be affected. Get your attitude straight first and foremost, make sure you know in advance who and what the rideout will involve, and choose those you attend accordingly.

Overtaking Other Traffic:

Dependant on the size if the rideout and the abilities and attitudes of the members, it may be decided that there will be overtakes, (a large group is probably best advised to forego overtaking altogether, particularly on a busy road or in town). Overtaking when in a group will by definition at least briefly break up the group, so it needs more careful planning than when alone, you should not attempt to ride for others, but factor in their needs when making the manoeuvre, can you see the junction marker ahead? Rider behind may not, you may think no-one would make an overtake in this situation - you'd be wrong. Again, factor into your riding plan the needs of the group, never forgetting you ride for yourself above all.


Few years old now, but still holds true, hope it helps.

Cheers mARK.

Originally Posted by 5hort5

indeed we are all adults but some adults like me don't know this stuff and would like to learn but tbh, by the sound of it from all of the above, a ride out doesn't sound fun

They are great fun, have you not done one yet?

Originally Posted by orose

Do you mark roundabout exits even when going "straight", does the TEC allow you in in front or expect you to join behind and pass them and so on.

I think we should, the could be an uneven number of exits to a roundabout and what the leader considers as "straight" may not be what a rider further back in the group considers as straight.

The other thing I often do when leading, on large roundabouts, roundabouts with lots of exits, or roundabouts with foliage or another obstruction that you can't see over the top of, is drop a marker at the entrance to the roundabout who watches where I go and waves people in the general direction I have taken, and another marker at the exit to give a definitive direction.