Do the poor deserve financial help?

[yorkie_chris]

Originally Posted by timwilky

far easier to enable people to help themselves. set a minimum wage that people can actually live on. and scrap taxing people on income below minimum wage. No huge bureaucracy needed to do that.

But that wouldn't justify the jobs of many civil servants would it?

Originally Posted by fizzwheel

Depends on the reasoning behind why they have ended up in their situation and what you describe as poor.

+1.

Why bring class into it at all? Someone working as a labourer in the day and cabbie by night struggling to make ends meet due to the current financial crisis deserves our help far more than some middle class chap who chooses to only works part time and (despite a higher hourly rate) earns less overall. Conversely, some middle class person working full time on a reasonable salary may well be struggling if they have kids, mortgage, work in an expensive area, a monstrous commute, etc. I'd rather they got a helping had than someone working class who earned less, but had fewer necessary outgoings and had previously accrued a lot of unnecessary debt going on holidays they couldn't afford, etc.

My view in general is that if someone asks you for financial help, be it someone you know, or society as a whole, you have every right to ask to see their finances and make your own judgement on how "necessary" their outgoings (both present and past ones that got them into this situation) are before deciding whether or not to help them. Even seemingly decadent outgoings, like two cars in a family can be quite necessary in some people's circumstances (not to mention of a benefit to society as a whole). Likewise, other "essentials" such as a washing machine, could really be viewed as luxuries.

[SoulKiss]

Originally Posted by missyorkie_chris

But it is so difficult to track what the money given is being spent on. Of course its their problem as to how they choose to spend it and they should have the common sense to use it wisely....as you've said, each cae would have to be assessed, no point giving them money if it's going to get frittered away.

Whats to track?

Everybody gets told "Here's your money, now feck off till next month......" and I mean everybody - kids would get a smaller amount.

If the person is living in Council Accommodation, which would be charged at a "per room" basis - so you would pay x for a living-room, kitchen and bathroom, then X per bedroom - kids would be "paid" the amount of a bedroom and for basic food and clothing. The "rent" would be deducted from the sum before they receive it however.

Originally Posted by Ceri JC

+1.

Why bring class into it at all?

I repeated the terms that came up in the debate, poor and working class seem to go hand-in-hand it seems. It does tend to complicate matters somewhat though. As you have stated there are no doubt families in both classes with circumstances worthy of financial assistance but I think in general the comparison is between hose families who desperately need any help they can get and those that can easily get on by without.

Why should anyone "deserve" anything? I work damn hard for what I've got.

[Dave20046]

I'm sick of the government looking after the sponging scrubbers.
immigrants claiming benefits on kids not even in the country, that 29stone woman who had triplets which cost the nhs £200k to deliver the little bears and she continues to sponge of the state for fattability benefit....and so will her kids as all she feeds them is mcD's

meh, we're all doomed

The missues and I bought at the wrong time, but we were sensible we could have had a brand new millers home 4 bed huge garden and double garage. Perfect for the future but with what was coming we aimed much lower and now have a 2 bed semi where I'm building a garage. We were smart! It would have been very easy to take the millers house but we'd be on our arses now if we had taken it.

The following may sound really harsh but I dont really care. If I get up to go to work and work a 40hr week (I am very aware this is less than some ppl dont point this out) I earn that money for me! I hate that we pay a tax which goes to people who dont work. I know people who I went to school with who got knocked up before getting a job. They live a life much like it shows on shameless ok so they dont go to the canaries for their jollys but they get an extra 40hrs a week to do with what the chuff they like. Why the hell do i have to pay for it?
My taxes should pay for things like police, fire service, NHS (altho a private system would work much better) and council employee's teachers and so on. but none of the rest of it should go anywhere no benifits and no subsidised housing I work for my money and thats just what it should be.. My money, my money, MY MONEY MY ****ING MONEY!!

[yorkie_chris]

Originally Posted by Dave20046

that 29stone woman who had triplets which cost the nhs £200k to deliver the little bears and she continues to sponge of the state for fattability benefit....and so will her kids as all she feeds them is mcD's

meh, we're all doomed

See, too fat to work.
So, stop paying the f##ker. Soon enough she will be slim enough to work. Gluttony and stupidity is not a disease.

Alternatively, chuck her in the sea and let the japanese use her for target practice. Also shoot whoever got her up the duff out of general principle, it's just wrong!

[Biker Biggles]

Originally Posted by timwilky

far easier to enable people to help themselves. set a minimum wage that people can actually live on. and scrap taxing people on income below minimum wage. No huge bureaucracy needed to do that.

Make income tax allowances transferable between partners so that stay at home carers allowances can go to the working partner.

silly things like enable child care at nights/evenings to permit parents to work outside of the 9-5 window.

Don't hand cash to people, but enable people to help themselves

Too much common sense there mate.You get the sack where I work for sensible ideas like that.

To be fair every case needs to be assessed individually. But that would cost too much to administrate. In our parents/grandparents days you lived with relatives until you could afford to buy a house, you had children when you could afford to and if you couldn't afford to go away on holiday you had a deck chair in the garden. It's all a symptom of people living beyond their means and the eargerness of banks to lend money.