Hell boys

There's a been a lot of work showing that kids from broken homes like these are psychologically damaged, especially in the way they perceive compassion and their understanding of consequences. Children who come out of broken homes as level headed people are the exception, not the norm (anecdotes don't trump data so keep them to yourselves).

The fault here doesn't lie with the children, it lies with the parents and with the system. Several councils across the UK have family intervention programs where children in at risk homes receive intensive and aggressive help from social workers and other professionals. The results are astonishing and have shown a significant decline in "broken homes" and antisocial behaviour, as well as greater integration back into society. These kids weren't so lucky - they just got left with abusive parents for too long before being adopted, by which point the damage was done.

The real tragedy here is not what they did to those other children, it's the legions of ignorant Sun/Daily Mail/Mirror readers who'll dismiss the children as being intrinsically evil and demand punitive retribution. It overlooks the fundamental problem of bad parenting and poor state intervention and, worse, the media frenzy won't encourage politicians to do the right thing by increasing funding for social services.

Originally Posted by ranathari

There's a been a lot of work showing that kids from broken homes like these are psychologically damaged, especially in the way they perceive compassion and their understanding of consequences. Children who come out of broken homes as level headed people are the exception, not the norm (anecdotes don't trump data so keep them to yourselves).

The fault here doesn't lie with the children, it lies with the parents and with the system. Several councils across the UK have family intervention programs where children in at risk homes receive intensive and aggressive help from social workers and other professionals. The results are astonishing and have shown a significant decline in "broken homes" and antisocial behaviour, as well as greater integration back into society. These kids weren't so lucky - they just got left with abusive parents for too long before being adopted, by which point the damage was done.

The real tragedy here is not what they did to those other children, it's the legions of ignorant Sun/Daily Mail/Mirror readers who'll dismiss the children as being intrinsically evil and demand punitive retribution. It overlooks the fundamental problem of bad parenting and poor state intervention and, worse, the media frenzy won't encourage politicians to do the right thing by increasing funding for social services.

better send them to disneyland then ****s, ps i have had a spell in a childrens home, and never done anything like that, yet, must have been all the counciling i received not.

[Balky001]

Originally Posted by ranathari

The real tragedy here is not what they did to those other children, it's the legions of ignorant Sun/Daily Mail/Mirror readers who'll dismiss the children as being intrinsically evil and demand punitive retribution. It overlooks the fundamental problem of bad parenting and poor state intervention and, worse, the media frenzy won't encourage politicians to do the right thing by increasing funding for social services.

No, the real tragedy is what they did to those kids & the abusive parenting.

Why are the parents not being prosecuted. The woman has 5 other kids, 1 other already in custody. If you bred wild animals to roam the street attacking everyone then you would go to jail, the parents need to be punished in this case just as much, and for safety sake to society (not for them)the other 5 kids should be taken in to care and assessed. Why do we have to wait for somone to comit a crime like this before they are locked up, they showed so many signs but it the begging 'give them a chance brigade, the allows them to create victim after victim.

[Bri w]

Originally Posted by ranathari

There's a been a lot of work showing that kids from broken homes like these are psychologically damaged, especially in the way they perceive compassion and their understanding of consequences. Children who come out of broken homes as level headed people are the exception, not the norm (anecdotes don't trump data so keep them to yourselves).

The fault here doesn't lie with the children, it lies with the parents and with the system. Several councils across the UK have family intervention programs where children in at risk homes receive intensive and aggressive help from social workers and other professionals. The results are astonishing and have shown a significant decline in "broken homes" and antisocial behaviour, as well as greater integration back into society. These kids weren't so lucky - they just got left with abusive parents for too long before being adopted, by which point the damage was done.

The real tragedy here is not what they did to those other children, it's the legions of ignorant Sun/Daily Mail/Mirror readers who'll dismiss the children as being intrinsically evil and demand punitive retribution. It overlooks the fundamental problem of bad parenting and poor state intervention and, worse, the media frenzy won't encourage politicians to do the right thing by increasing funding for social services.

My apologies for flippancy, but it is in "idle banter."

Being part of a fostering/adopting family i have seen, and grown up with the good and the bad. I have been cruelly tortured by an older foster child, and i feel compassion for him, although i didn't at the time.

And i do take leave from work to work with the various child support agencies. I also spent 4 years working as a volunteer, and holding down a full time job at the same time. I also know that brain programming starts in the womb, and that an abused mother invariably gives birth to a child that is stressed. And the child struggles to cope with stressful situations, a common response to the situation being to lash out.

As to Social workers et al; they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. A tough job.

Sadly i've also have a dodgy sense of humour that escapes now and again. Thankfully i also know when to be professional.

So in the theme of banter, in this cyber world, hanging's too good for 'em!

[gruntygiggles]

Ranathari - I totally agree with most of your point....apart from the real tragedy not being what they did to those boys. I agree, the defendents are not to blame, but they are evil.......they were not born that way and given a decent start in life, would have been different boys, but the fact that they have developed into the kind of people that can inflict that level of torture onto others means that they will never be "normal" no matter how much counselling the now recieve.

Should they spend the rest of their lives in jail? I don't know, the rest of the lives of such young kids is a very very long time, but they do need to be put into a system that will punish as well as support them now.

It's just not good enough to put them into the system. The 11 year old is showing zero remorse......he's learned nothing in the last 5 months!

[gruntygiggles]

Originally Posted by Balky001

No, the real tragedy is what they did to those kids & the abusive parenting.

Why are the parents not being prosecuted. The woman has 5 other kids, 1 other already in custody. If you bred wild animals to roam the street attacking everyone then you would go to jail, the parents need to be punished in this case just as much, and for safety sake to society (not for them)the other 5 kids should be taken in to care and assessed. Why do we have to wait for somone to comit a crime like this before they are locked up, they showed so many signs but it the begging 'give them a chance brigade, the allows them to create victim after victim.

+1

Saying that the real tragedy is NOT some children who will bear mental scars for the rest of their life after being tortured is probably a bit of an oversight which I am sure you did not mean to come out that way (correct me if Im wrong).

I think that 'blaming' (of parents, society, a blade of grass that scared them as a baby etc) is also not the way forward, it is definately a contributing factor when a child is in the 'care' of parents who are cruel and abusive but then what of the children who are spoiled and treated like gold by their parents, they too do things of which are unspeakable and most of them have never had a hand laid on them in their lives!

I think that people are just all different, life can shape and mould what you really are, (what the artist does with his sculpting..it will always be a piece of stone at the end of the day).

I really believe that people who can do and enjoy these sort of things have cruel underlying tendencies and others have mental health issues.

Exterior factors can help create a situation but I wouldnt say are the sole cause.

Originally Posted by Von Teese

Saying that the real tragedy is NOT some children who will bear mental scars for the rest of their life after being tortured is probably a bit of an oversight which I am sure you did not mean to come out that way (correct me if Im wrong).

No, you're right.

I meant it's a tragedy because it means more kids could end up becoming victims of other abused children. If the system isn't sorted out and effort put into terminating cycles of abuse before they begin then we'll see this situation playing out again. It's a lesser tragedy if we learn the lesson and prevent it from happening again.

Death Penalty

Originally Posted by Von Teese

Saying that the real tragedy is NOT some children who will bear mental scars for the rest of their life after being tortured is probably a bit of an oversight which I am sure you did not mean to come out that way (correct me if Im wrong).

I think that 'blaming' (of parents, society, a blade of grass that scared them as a baby etc) is also not the way forward, it is definately a contributing factor when a child is in the 'care' of parents who are cruel and abusive but then what of the children who are spoiled and treated like gold by their parents, they too do things of which are unspeakable and most of them have never had a hand laid on them in their lives!

I think that people are just all different, life can shape and mould what you really are, (what the artist does with his sculpting..it will always be a piece of stone at the end of the day).

I really believe that people who can do and enjoy these sort of things have cruel underlying tendencies and others have mental health issues.

Exterior factors can help create a situation but I wouldnt say are the sole cause.

++++++++1.

Totally totally agree.

I think that although what the boys (defendants) have been through in their past will have a bearing on how they behave, like VT says, I do think they must have something wrong to make them carry out such terrible acts.

At the end of the day, it is probably too late for them to be rehabilitated into ordinary life without them causing problems and potentially hurting someone. I just wonder what these two will be like when they are 20/21? I would imagine they will be very very dangerous men.

Then again, like Jamie Bulgers murderers, they will get new identities and everything they could ever wish for when they are released........