It was nearly all over!

i try to never brake especially near corners.

iam told me to chase the vanishing point but if it starts coming towards you you are going too fast.

get out on roads you know and concentrate on the vanishing point and you can apply it to every road and therefore 99% of the time will not be caught out by going into a corner too fast.

Originally Posted by Baph

But we're taking over the mans thread here...

Please carry on i'm listening

[Bluepete]

You could try reading this It's a bit dry, I looked at it at work, (Police advanced driver don't'ch'know) it's skewed towards bikes as opposed to cars and may, one day, save your life.

Originally Posted by BluePete

You could try reading this It's a bit dry, I looked at it at work, (Police advanced driver don't'ch'know) it's skewed towards bikes as opposed to cars and may, one day, save your life.

I borrowed that very book around a week before I took my DAS. Can't say I stick 100% to all of it, more just borrow bits & pieces from it.

Very useful indeed though.

EDIT: I just thought actually, when I've been out chasing IL4's around North Wales, I've criticised them for being all over the brakes, when I wasn't. Hmm. Although I'm sure I'm a lot quicker on the SV when I use them (faster approach to corners, similar corner & exit speed) compared to when I don't.

[SoulKiss]

Originally Posted by plowsie

Please carry on i'm listening

If you insist

When I was learning to drive a car my dad taught me about smooth driving.

Basically the brakes were only to be used when stopping the car for whatever reason.

What this teaches is better observation of the road ahead as you have to plan your driving better so that you are at the appropriate speed to take corners etc.

The Vanishing Point theory adds to this in that you can tell if you are going to fast into a corner (or too slow), which if you have already observed the nature of the corner, can be corrected by applying less throttle, or if needed, a touch of brakes, although the use of brakes signifies a lack of observation.

Baph adds the VERY good point that as well as observing the road ahead, on a bike we have the added flexibility of being able to be on either side of out own lane (instead of being stuck right of centre in a car), and we generally have the nimbleness to use the other lane if it is clear.

This allows us to widen corners and influence the vanishing point.

You can mess around with sketches of roads with corners to see how position affects visibility.

Baphs other point about road furniture is also something to consider.

Paint and signs cost money, therefore councils dont put them down for any old reason.

The more paint/signs you can see, then the more hazards there are.

However, if you are observing, you dont need the signs, which was almost your downfall.

Not getting on top of you, I have a few years on the roads under my belt, its just doing it on a bike thats new to me.

Originally Posted by SoulKiss

Baph adds the VERY good point that as well as observing the road ahead, on a bike we have the added flexibility of being able to be on either side of out own lane (instead of being stuck right of centre in a car), and we generally have the nimbleness to use the other lane if it is clear.

This allows us to widen corners and influence the vanishing point.

Can I also point out that you don't only have your side of the road to play with.

A few people at the AR expressed concerns (especially on the rideup) about me sitting on the wrong side of the road. I do this to get the maximum view I can, not only of traffic on-coming, but also pot holes/manhole covers, animals (like deer) etc.

This technique is also taught at very advanced (ie Police Class A) level apparently. However, as Strechie adeptly pointed out, if there's another bike close behind you, you have to be careful that you have enough room to get back to your side of the road quick sharpish. Don't want a head on, but also don't want to wipe out another biker. Just because they shouldn't be there on the inside of you on approach to a bend doesn't mean they won't be.

I also would not recommend anyone else, regardless of their skill level, to try sitting on the wrong side of the road. That has to be a personal judgement call with regards confidence, skill & comfort. At first, it's very very un-nerving. Now, I'm used to it.

EDIT: Oh, another point, everything in this thread, and the references linked to, does not only apply on country roads. It applies just as much in a heavily populated city as it does at the top of a mountain. Observation isn't only about what you can see, it's about allowing others to see you (if they happen to be looking).

Originally Posted by Baph

I also would not recommend anyone else, regardless of their skill level, to try sitting on the wrong side of the road. That has to be a personal judgement call with regards confidence, skill & comfort. At first, it's very very un-nerving. Now, I'm used to it.

I would avoid crossing the centre line 99% of the time. A: That's where loads of debris collects - I noticed you seem to get a puncture or two - and B: The crown in the road, the paint, 99% of the time it's just not worth crossing- if you can't see far enough, slow down so you don't have to see as far.

Just my 2 cents.

Originally Posted by SoulKiss

Vanishing point theory is simple.

You look down the road/through the corner you are taking, if the point where both sides of the road meet is moving away from you, then you are going slow enough to make it, if that point is coming towards you, then you are going too fast.

Surely not so simple. Approach any corner and the vanishing point will get closer, no matter how fast or slow you are travelling. I think your above comment applies more to "on the limit" riding rather than maximising observation.

Originally Posted by Baph

The whole thing about more paint == council department trying to p*** away your tax before the end of the fiscal year, hence vastly more road markings than are neccessary, lots of extra signs to crash into, other road users confused by the whole shambolic system pulling out/forcing their way through as they mistakenly believe they have right of way

Plowsie: Don't worry mate, most of us have gone a bit hot into corners and run wide at some point, the important thing is that you were lucky enough not to have an off (or worse a head on) learn from it and alter your riding accordingly.

I had a spectacularly bad one that could have easily resulted in me coofing it, had something been coming the other way. Ironically, poor placement of a 'tight bend' road sign was a contributing factor (okay, it was mainly my fault, but the sign didn't help ). I saw a 'warning tight bend' sign, slowed, went round the bend (which wasn't particularly tight, but being aware of how signs are overused, thought nothing of it). I then accelerated out of the bend as it opened into what appeared to be a gentleish sweeper. This 'gentleish sweeper' turned out to be a nasty decreasing radius turn that almost culminated in a hairpin. It seemed this was the bend the sign was warning about! Needless to say, I shot across the road and onto the opposite bank. I managed to keep it upright and escaped with only a bruised ego. I'm a bit more careful now and try to always be vigilant for these sorts of bends when riding on unfamiliar roads. These sort of bends are thankully quite rare (I've only encountered 2 others like them), but that just makes it all the more scarey if you come across one IMO.

Originally Posted by sinbad

I noticed you seem to get a puncture or two

I have only had a puncture in two tyres.

The first, I was at a school function, came out to the bike to find the rear flat. Some scumbag had slashed my tyre.

The second, I was within 5metres of parking at the office, rolled over something (I'm presuming a sharp stone) on a single track (tarmac'd) road. I was actually off centre to get a view around a building.

Neither of those reflect on my road position IMO (arguable the second one does), and they are the only two punctures I've ever had on a bike.

Nor does any of that detract from the fact that it is a technique taught at very advanced level (as I have said).

Your points about the centre line paint, that depends partly on your tyres. Z6's (even only a couple of weeks old) will complain about it, I haven't found PR2s to complain. Also, if you're hard on the throttle or brakes whilst crossing paint work, you're asking for trouble.

EDIT: Ceri JC, my point wasn't that paint/road signs should be adheared to in all cases (although in most they should). More that if you look well ahead at where the road is going, often you will see road signs, telegraph poles etc that will give you clues.

My useless tuppence worth....

Vanishing pont moving away.... Bend is straightening....
Vanishing point coming towards you.... bend tightening....


though coming from the worlds slowest cornerer.....