The Org EU referendum

Originally Posted by Biker Biggles

FWIW I think its too late to pull out.

I've tried that argument and it never goes down well.


The arguments about how expensive it would be OUT of Europe seem at odds with the experience of nobody saving money after we entered and countries that are also out of Europe still generally being less expensive than us.

[yorkie_chris]

There are some things I think that EU wide legislation done well would be great.

Civil liberties and conservation-biased fishing regulations being the main ones... but they keep c*cking them up on a monumental scale anyway.

Trouble is their fishing based legislation doesn't really promote conservation.

[yorkie_chris]

Originally Posted by Spank86

Trouble is their fishing based legislation doesn't really promote conservation.

Aye, I wasn't trying to suggest there was any sort of connection between what I'd like to see and what they have actually brought into existence!

Haven't read anything but we're not in the EEC, essentially we left when we signed the last treaty with the EU which has incorporated what the EEC was into Europe and so if we left Europe we would be OUT of the EEC and to rejoin we'd need all 26 other member states to give us a yes vote....

Good luck with that one.

People who voted yes, how many of you actually know about Europe? For example how much money do we give to the EU on a yearly basis? (It's a LOT less than people think and the benefits we receive far outweigh the cost)

The other issue is that a lot of our financial services would become overpriced in Europe, companies would leave. There are a lot of American companies that have a base in the UK to trade with Europe.

Unfortunately, the situation is not as easy as people think and economically we would be worse off for 5-10 years at least and after that it would be doubtful if we would ever recover in a world where previously under developed states are now becoming economic superpowers.

You only have to look at the level or population of a lot of these countries to see that our workforce would struggle to keep up!

The population of India, China, Russia, America etc we just would not be able to keep up. At least in Europe we have a decide sized economy.

The media are fantastic at being spectacularly eurosceptic and reporting exaggerated facts for their own purposes. Unfortunately, this has turned the majority of the British public into ignorant Eurosceptics without actually knowing many of the facts at hand.

For example...

Contributions to EU are ranked in this order:

Germany, France, Italy, UK
Germany pays nearly double what the UK pays.

The UK pays the LOWEST to the EU as a % of Gross national income at 0.62% compared to Greece at 1.35%

The UK also receives about 2/3 of the difference between it's contribution and it's receipts back as a rebate that Maggie Thatcher managed to negotiate in 1984.

In terms of spending the UK gets over £80m towards Education and over £400m towards research and innovation (invested in private companies throughout the UK).

The UK net contribution to the EU in 2011 was around £8 billion.
In the same year UK spending was £700bn total.

This includes 167bn from the DWP and over £100bn on the NHS.

The advantage to the EU is it prevents the UK government cutting all funding from things like Education, whilst at the same time allows us to have a smaller army (saves the government enormous amounts of money) and lots of other benefits...

I shall stop here or I will be here all night.

You lost me at "army"

[chris8886]

Originally Posted by ChrisCurvyS

Without having a team of expert, independent economists at your disposal, it's very hard to get a grasp on the economic pros and cons of being in the EU as it's such a vast issue for the average person to comprehend.

However, simplyfying the issue by looking at it just as bikers, everything the EU does seems to be bad for us. From emissions legislation that makes bikes run bad until you tune them, to the ever more complicated and difficult licence tests which simply seem designed to gradually kill off motorcycling, silly 'green' biofuel, anti-tamper - it doesn't look good does it?

And none of it appears to bring any benefit to anyone, and a lot of the time no-one at all has called for it (eg anti-tamper) - it's just legislation for legislation's sake and it's highly anti-democratic.

However, at the same time there's part of me that thinks we can't get too cocky as a nation and burn our bridges as we don't have much to offer the world right now, so we need to think very carefully about it and do our homework.

can't agree more about the bike licences stuff, i just keep thanking my lucky stars that i already have my licence and don't have to go through all the crap and expense that you have to now!

and as for none of us really being 'experts' at this sorta stuff... what do you expect on a motorcycle forum! lol, we're not supposed to be, lol.

Originally Posted by Steve_God

Leave completely? No.
Renegotiate terms to get a better deal? Yes.

this i am in complete agreement with, as for it actually happening ie. all the other members agreeing to the stuff we want? not a cat in hell's chance!

Originally Posted by timwilky

The UK was conned at the time of our parents referendum. They were told they were entering into a "Common Market" a free trade organisation. Not a federal states of Europe. Nobody expected back then that free trade would dictate what a motorcycle licence test should consist of etc.

i quite agree that we should test people ourselves with regards to all vehicles, we've always been pretty good at this sorta thing i think.

Originally Posted by Red Herring

This is a classic case that illustrates the weakness of any democracy.

The vast majority, myself included, don't know nearly enough about world and European economics to be able to make the best decision for the future of this country around it's membership of the EU. All we know as the general public is whatever the politicians and/or the press choose to tell us to support their own particular point of view, or to show the weakness in others. It is very rare for them to have the long term interests of this country as the driving force behind their decisions, they are far more likely to take the short term view and take the route that will be popular and win them the next vote.

I'm not saying I don't care about this issue, I'm just saying that the government putting this issue to the public is akin to the children in a primary school being asked to write the school syllabus.

There are some very knowledgeable and well informed economists out there somewhere who have made a living out of calling these shots, if I was charged with making this decision I'd be asking them, not the bloke down the pub.

this is an excellent point in my view!

Originally Posted by EssexDave

Haven't read anything but we're not in the EEC, essentially we left when we signed the last treaty with the EU which has incorporated what the EEC was into Europe and so if we left Europe we would be OUT of the EEC and to rejoin we'd need all 26 other member states to give us a yes vote....

Good luck with that one.

People who voted yes, how many of you actually know about Europe? For example how much money do we give to the EU on a yearly basis? (It's a LOT less than people think and the benefits we receive far outweigh the cost)

The other issue is that a lot of our financial services would become overpriced in Europe, companies would leave. There are a lot of American companies that have a base in the UK to trade with Europe.

Unfortunately, the situation is not as easy as people think and economically we would be worse off for 5-10 years at least and after that it would be doubtful if we would ever recover in a world where previously under developed states are now becoming economic superpowers.

You only have to look at the level or population of a lot of these countries to see that our workforce would struggle to keep up!

The population of India, China, Russia, America etc we just would not be able to keep up. At least in Europe we have a decide sized economy.

The media are fantastic at being spectacularly eurosceptic and reporting exaggerated facts for their own purposes. Unfortunately, this has turned the majority of the British public into ignorant Eurosceptics without actually knowing many of the facts at hand.

For example...

Contributions to EU are ranked in this order:

Germany, France, Italy, UK
Germany pays nearly double what the UK pays.

The UK pays the LOWEST to the EU as a % of Gross national income at 0.62% compared to Greece at 1.35%

The UK also receives about 2/3 of the difference between it's contribution and it's receipts back as a rebate that Maggie Thatcher managed to negotiate in 1984.

In terms of spending the UK gets over £80m towards Education and over £400m towards research and innovation (invested in private companies throughout the UK).

The UK net contribution to the EU in 2011 was around £8 billion.
In the same year UK spending was £700bn total.

This includes 167bn from the DWP and over £100bn on the NHS.

The advantage to the EU is it prevents the UK government cutting all funding from things like Education, whilst at the same time allows us to have a smaller army (saves the government enormous amounts of money) and lots of other benefits...

I shall stop here or I will be here all night.

this all sounds very plausable dave may i ask how you know this stuff?

[Bibio]

Britain will do what it has always done, 'what's best for Britain' and stuff everyone else. well that's fine but what about in 50 years and Europe finally gets its act together and we are not part of it. the uk need all the help it can get as the cost of living is spiralling out of proportion and companies are leaving left right and centre due to the GOV taxing high earners silly amounts.

either join the club of feck off out of it.

i would like to see the UK as part of the EU fully including the Euro as i feel that if we had joined the Euro at the beginning it would have stood a better chance with the might of the £ behind it.

the people of the UK don't look to the future and only think about how to fill their wallets here and now.

it's ok saying stay in the economic community with free trade but what about when the rest of them get pizzed off with that? well the UK is up shizz river without a paddle. people have short memories but some of us can still remember the French blockades, now take that thought and then add in the rest of Europe.

the UK needs Europe more than they need us.

Originally Posted by chris8886

this all sounds very plausable dave may i ask how you know this stuff?

Mix law degree with accountancy background and strong interest in economics with clearly too much spare time on my hands and you end up with this.

(Plus I wrote a brief Essay on the pros and cons of a renegotiation of the UK's membership with the EU so spent about 2 months doing nothing but research into the EU, our membership and other types of membership).

I was pretty Eurosceptic at the time, almost certain that I wanted us to leave!

[NTECUK]

Originally Posted by Bibio

companies are leaving left right and centre due to the GOV taxing high earners silly amounts.



i would like to see the UK as part of the EU fully including the Euro as i feel that if we had joined the Euro at the beginning it would have stood a better chance with the might of the £ behind it.

the people of the UK don't look to the future and only think about how to fill their wallets here and now.
.

This governmet rteduced the high rate of tax.
so thats better than the last if your a high earner.

The Euro had criteria that had to be meet for inclusion into the Euro.
The counties now introuble didnt meet thoes criteria.
So should not have been allowed to join.Another example of rules being ignored and corruption.
Don't join clubs who are corrupt.

Last point.Yes thats true .Its human nature and unlikely to change.