Advanced riding – braking

[fizzwheel]

Originally Posted by Blue_SV650S

If you naturally do it on the GIXER, I can't see how you don't do it AT ALL on the SV? Sure, you won't be wanting to go as deep/hard in on the SV as the GIXER, but not at all???

I dont know I havent really thought about it that much I guess what I'm trying to say is that I get much better feel from the GSXR, so I feel more confident on it. I dont get the same level of feedback / feel from the SV, so I dont feel as confident on the front as I do on the GSXR.

I rememeber when I started riding I scared myself a couple of times on the SV with a handful of front brake so I'm wary of just how fast it stands up and runs straight when you do it. I guess because I've never had that experience on the GSXR ( because I'm a more experienced rider now ) that that negative block about trail braking isnt there.

I suspect I might be doing it though. I also use the bikes for different things and I ride the SV alot more in the wet, rubbish wintery conditions where I tend to ride alot more gently that I do on the GSXR on warm summer days.

Originally Posted by weazelz

I sometimes think that you forget just what an advanced/fast rider you are Nick. I think most people have had it drummed into them that using the front brake when not upright will have them on their arses quicker than you can say a very quick thing

I definitely think that braking into an corner is a part of smooth progressive riding - having to be off the brakes & have the bike settled before turning in reduces the fluidity of riding for me. I do moderate it if conditions are not optimum - especially if it's wet/slippery/bumpy. I find that turning in on the brakes helps the bike to turn & progressively releasing them into the apex makes for a much smoother corner entry than the alternative

Sure I have I have put my time in on the road and track, but I don't profess to be any more than the tool I am!! However I do appreciate what is basic riding and advanced riding (to my mind anyhoo). I feel most techniques used on track can be directly uatilised (at least to some degree) on the road and visa versa.

As well as hazard perception etc, advanced motoring is about greater vehicle control right? I like you feel that if you are not using the brakes into a turn that you really are not controlling the bike to any great degree, certainly can’t be getting much ‘feedback’. Your comment "I find that turning in on the brakes helps the bike to turn & progressively releasing them into the apex makes for a much smoother corner entry than the alternative " sums it up for me too ...

Ok so it’s a necessity to go fast on track, but having the bike ‘balanced’ through a combination of brake usage, weight distribution and throttle control has to be the ultimate goal on the vehicle control side of being an ‘advanced’ rider?

Sure it would take practice to utalise the method to any great extent, but again, it's an ADVANCED method that can be gradually worked on … you need to work on any of the methods taught in IAM to make them ‘second nature’ or got the best from them??? I actually think for aforementioned reasons its a safer method (if done correctly) and therefore surely not to be frowned on at the advanced level as it appears to be?

Originally Posted by fizzwheel

I dont know I havent really thought about it that much I guess what I'm trying to say is that I get much better feel from the GSXR, so I feel more confident on it. I dont get the same level of feedback / feel from the SV, so I dont feel as confident on the front as I do on the GSXR.

I rememeber when I started riding I scared myself a couple of times on the SV with a handful of front brake so I'm wary of just how fast it stands up and runs straight when you do it. I guess because I've never had that experience on the GSXR ( because I'm a more experienced rider now ) that that negative block about trail braking isnt there.

I suspect I might be doing it though. I also use the bikes for different things and I ride the SV alot more in the wet, rubbish wintery conditions where I tend to ride alot more gently that I do on the GSXR on warm summer days.

I think running the brakes into a turn is imperative in the wet ... it gives you a feel for the grip levels and helps 'dig' the front in and duly transfer weight to the rear when you ease off ...

If you didn't trail the brakes in the wet you would be pootling/wobbling about surely?!?!? I can’t imagine NOT doing it …

Like I said, I tried today and it was horrible and I don’t feel in control!!

Oh and just to make it clear, I am not saying to be an advanced road rider you need to be to ride like Rossi at every turn and/or be the last of the late late brakers (there is no need to do that unless you are riding like a t1t ), but at least running the brakes into a turn a bit is pretty fundamental surely?

[fizzwheel]

I dunno, I'm definately not that brilliant a wet rider, I tend to ride in the wet in a more traditional way, brake, speed set, obs done and line set and then I'm on a constant throttle to the apex and then winding the throttle on once I'm passsed the apex.

I ride a lot harder in the dry hence why I'm trailing the brakes sometimes, I tend to do it when I'm on a bit of road I know well. If I'm on an unfamiliar road then I dont do it and ride in the brake in a straight line and I find a bit of a slower corner entry speed means I feel safer and I dont have those sphinchter tightening moments if I judge the road wrongly.

I think trailing the brakes is a useful skill though its definately helped me a few times get round corners I think.

I dont also tend to analyse what I'm doing and why anymore I just ride how it feels natural to do so, sometimes I trial sometimes I dont. Is it fundamental to riding, I dont know. I was always told it was a bad thing to do. But I was quite surprised when one day I was out and I did it and I didnt end up in heap. The one thing I've always tried to do and I dont always get it right was to be gentle with the controls, I really noticed that the bike felt better if I squeezed rather than grabbed the brakes to apply them and I was gentle when letting them off again, as mentioned above it helps keep the bike settled doesnt it.

You've got me thinking about my riding and braking now...

What Blue, Fizz and Weaselz says makes perfect sense to me and its the way I ride on the GS. However, I kind of started doing it by accident, in part as the GS was giveing me (too much) confidence. However, subsequently I found the same thing works a treat on a bike with a normal setup, and like Blue says above I pretty much couldnt imagine not trailing in and then easing in corner.

I wonder though, if one HAS to put a little on in corner, then if you are already trailing a little, i.e. easing off the trail, would easing a bit on be less likely to unsettle the bike than if you were completely off the brakes and had to put on to the same degree??

[fizzwheel]

Originally Posted by Dr Rich

I wonder though, if one HAS to put a little on in corner, then if you are already trailing a little, i.e. easing off the trail, would easing a bit on be less likely to unsettle the bike than if you were completely off the brakes and had to put on to the same degree??

I think it probably would, as you'd already have the suspension compressed and the bike settled on its springs, so a little more brake pressure is only going to change that a little.

Whereas a brake application mid bend when the forks are doing their own thing is going to compress and unsettle the forks alot more than it would do if you had the brakes already applied

IMHO.

I dunno, I'm definately not that brilliant a wet rider, I tend to ride in the wet in a more traditional way, brake, speed set, obs done and line set and then I'm on a constant throttle to the apex and then winding the throttle on once I'm passsed the apex. - I tend to ride slower in the wet obviously, but I don't pu55y about (I blame racing in the wet - it makes you a bit of a 'case in the wet!! ) ... Anyway, I actually brake pretty hard on the front still before a conrer and purposely slide the rear about, not only is it a giggle, but sliding the rear about lets you know how much grip there will be for the front/tipping in ... if when overemphasizing the rear (in a more upright position - but probably not in the vertical) it skids out real easy, I then keep the front on harder/for longer before tipping in and then take the corner slower ... if there appears to be reasonable grip, I go in harder and tip in sooner ... or perhaps use the information as input to likely grip at the next corner ... its just my way of judging how greasy a corner is likely to be ... you kinda get the feel for rear slippage relates to front grippage over time ... especially if you ride the same road day-in day-out (hard to explain, but what was initially 'fun' became a useful tool in judging grip levels available).

I think trailing the brakes is a useful skill though its definately helped me a few times get round corners I think. - Indeed!

Is it fundamental to riding, I dont know. - Fundamental to riding, or even riding safely, I'd say no, to going fast/making maximum progress and being a truly - by my definition - advanced rider ... I'd say YES!!

You've got me thinking about my riding and braking now... - Reading the book got me thinking about mine!! - I obviously break one of the commandments set down in this book, so I must be doing it wrong!!

[northwind]

I'm reeeeeealy bad for braking into corners, I sort of trained myself out of comfort braking and accidentally into trail braking. I don't consider it smart on the road though, really, but it feels really unnatural for me not to do it now when I'm in a fast mood, and I end up entering corners really slowly.

BUT! If you never ever brake in a corner, if you ever find yourself in a position where you have to brake in a corner, it will be the first time you ever do it and so it's far more likely that you'll crash. So I reckon a policy of total avoidance could rob you of skills that could make the difference between crashing and not crashing.

Originally Posted by northwind

BUT! If you never ever brake in a corner, if you ever find yourself in a position where you have to brake in a corner, it will be the first time you ever do it and so it's far more likely that you'll crash. So I reckon a policy of total avoidance could rob you of skills that could make the difference between crashing and not crashing.

I'd say it is worse than that ... if you are already 'partially loaded' in a corner and then need a bit more (for whatever reason) then the bike is already in the posture,no problem - however grabbing a bit from nowhere (suspension/weight distribution wise) in a turn has to be worse right?

[northwind]

Haven't a clue (I like this smiley though)