Why Don't They Teach Active Counter Steering?

Originally Posted by speedplay

Theroretically you would fall off on the right (assuming the bike didnt fall away from under you and pitch you over the front) as counter steering isnt about pushing the bar all the way forwards....

Through my own experience its about subtle steering on a bike is part of what keeps you alive

No, but what happens with a hefty input still applies when you scale it all back down to realistic levels.

It's like balancing a sweeping brush on its end on your palm. If you want to move the whole brush to your left, first you have to move your hand to the right. That makes it lean to the left, and you can follow it. Then when you want to straighten it up, you move your hand even faster to the left.

This is the essence of countersteering. The bars move, the front wheel goes where you steer it and the bike "wants" to topple over. Thankfully the gyroscopic effect does help to keep us upright at higher speeds, but countersteering does work at walking pace too, just not in the same unnoticeable way, and because it isn't always needed people think there's a magic switch over speed. But remember it next time you're doing 3mph and making small (or not so small) steering inputs to keep yourself from having to put a foot down.

[flymo]

Originally Posted by speedplay

Theroretically you would fall off on the right (assuming the bike didnt fall away from under you and pitch you over the front) as counter steering isnt about pushing the bar all the way forwards....

Through my own experience its about subtle steering on a bike is part of what keeps you alive

Thats my point though and it answers your own question. Obviously you wouldnt push the bar all the way forwards, but pushing it forwards a certain amount and at a certain speed will lean the bike down faster. Thats active counter steering.

It explains why the bike would lean one way or the other.

Counter steering is a technique we use regularly in racing, particularly in fast direction changes.

oooo its still a bit fuzzy but i think i under stand, does it only apply on fastish corners because ive noticed if i lean right round a roundabout etc i turn the bars right.

[flymo]

Originally Posted by Holdup

ive noticed if i lean right round a roundabout etc i turn the bars right.

think about what you really do. do you actually try and turn the bars in the direction you are turning or do you just assume thats what happens.

Your bike leans and turns in that direction but you probably dont actually turn the bars to the same direction. Unless you were going very very slowly (like turning the bike around in your garden) you would likely fall off towards the outside of the turn if you turned the front wheel in the direction you wanted to go.

If you approached a right hand turn at say 30 mph and turned the front wheel to the right you would likely fall off to the left. Unconciously you are at first countersteeing and then straightening the bars as by this point the bike is settled into an attitude that will take it around a corner (leaning). Towards the end of the turn you will turn the wheel into the turn direction to bring the bike more upright.

It sounds bizarre but thats how a bike travels around a corner.

looked at this with lots of clips on youtube putting it into practice is another thing and something i think only experience will give me however if someone can fasttrack me then that would be magic but for anyone who has never heard of it then type it into youtube and you will see lots of examples that explain it really well

Originally Posted by flymo

think about what you really do. do you actually try and turn the bars in the direction you are turning or do you just assume thats what happens.

Your bike leans and turns in that direction but you probably dont actually turn the bars to the same direction. Unless you were going very very slowly (like turning the bike around in your garden) you would likely fall off towards the outside of the turn if you turned the front wheel in the direction you wanted to go.

If you approached a right hand turn at say 30 mph and turned the front wheel to the right you would likely fall off to the left. Unconciously you are at first countersteeing and then straightening the bars as by this point the bike is settled into an attitude that will take it around a corner (leaning). Towards the end of the turn you will turn the wheel into the turn direction to bring the bike more upright.

It sounds bizarre but thats how a bike travels around a corner.

Yeah, the actual positive steering angle applied whilst in a steady state of lean/roll (on a medium speed long corner f'rinstance) is minimal, tiny, and you most certainly aren't countersteering all the way around.

Countersteering is what you simply have to do to adjust the angle of roll/lean, every time you adjust the angle of roll/lean. Be it into a corner, during a corner, or leaving a corner.

Originally Posted by flymo

think about what you really do. do you actually try and turn the bars in the direction you are turning or do you just assume thats what happens.

Your bike leans and turns in that direction but you probably dont actually turn the bars to the same direction.

i suppose i dont make them do it but they do appear to turn right a bit but only if for example im on a 12 oclock 3 oclock 6 oclock 9 oclock round about and ive come from 6 oclock and want to go to 3 oclock ( if you no what i mean)

Originally Posted by Holdup

oooo its still a bit fuzzy but i think i under stand, does it only apply on fastish corners because ive noticed if i lean right round a roundabout etc i turn the bars right.

The lean is a function of the turn: you don't lean if you want to turn, you lean because you are turning.

Just watched a vid i think i understand it now watching the man he was basicly turnin the oposite way before he turned the way he wanted to go, to simplify is it just like a scandinavian flick?

[flymo]

Originally Posted by sinbad

Yeah, the actual positive steering angle applied whilst in a steady state of lean/roll (on a medium speed long corner f'rinstance) is minimal, tiny, and you most certainly aren't countersteering all the way around.

Countersteering is what you simply have to do to adjust the angle of roll/lean, every time you adjust the angle of roll/lean. Be it into a corner, during a corner, or leaving a corner.

thats exactly right, you only counter steer to enter, adjust or leave the turn. its necessary whenever you need to adjust the bikes lean up or down.

Once in a turn there will be a very minor (depending on actual speed) turn on the front wheel towards the corner direction. The centrifugal force to the outside of the turn is balanced against the lean ( constant falling into the turn).