Do I need to upgrade my brakes?

[Dave20046]

Originally Posted by Viney

...However, as said, make sure your braking system is in good order. Make sure you dont have siezed pistons etc and that everything is nicley greased up (With Red grubber stuff etc) and that the fluid and pads are in good order. If you do want to try different tuff, then of course you can change the pads for a sintered pad, and maybe the hoses (Yet im not convinced there is much difference with hoses). Pads, anything like EBC HH (If you are a low milage user, as they are hard on discs) or Cabonne Lorraine A3+ pads. There are toerh brands but those are the only 2 i have expierence of.

Not sure if this is to do with the hoses or just the fact a renewal of brake fluid was necesary but I know andybrad's struggled with his brakes pretty much since he got the bike, had them serviced, changed the fluid and bled numerous times and wasn't happy with them until he swapped his hoses.

[Viney]

I ride mine and the girlfriends bike back to back, both bike have sintered pads, mine has braided hoses, heres stock (8 year old hoses) i cant feel the difference at all.

One thing that might be worthwhile noting is that you're not going to be able to brake as efficiently as the bike can do with the standard fork springs. Adding uprated springs and heavier oil makes the bike dive much less, which means less of the weight transfer is used in compressing the springs, and more in pushing through the tyre contact patch.

It's possible the the above is rubbish and it only improves the feedback from the front-end, but after changing springs/oil I was able to brake much harder than I had previously

[Viney]

Originally Posted by Neeja

It's possible the the above is rubbish and it only improves the feedback from the front-end, but after changing springs/oil I was able to brake much harder than I had previously

How? The laws of Physics say that that would not be true. Your brakes will still apply the same ammount of frictional force to the discs no matter what, you are not changing the braking system in anyway. Its a perceptional thing imho that you are braking harder when you are not. Maybe its un nerving that the bike dips therfore you dont brake as hard. Again, Verna's SV is stock, mine has uprated oil and springs, yet they both stop just as well.

I am a scaptic to all these things and it takes a lot to convince me. Being able to ride 2 svs back to back with these difference have taught me, that a majority of them are just plain rubbish and that the differences are just to small to notice. Maybe on better bikes it would be a lot more noticable, or if you done large swaps like USD forks, 6 pots, rear shock replce, then yes maybe there difference would be noticible.

[Luckypants]

WRT Neeja and Viney's comments about fork springs, I think Viney is right that it's a perception thing, but not because one has fitted 'new stuff' to the bike. Standard SV springs may be too soft for some (my self included) and so dive badly under braking. Fork dive puts off peeps from braking any harder as they feel 'at the limit' of the bike doing a endo / stoppie. Fitting the correct spring for your weight and getting the damping right with a fork oil change reduces dive significantly, meaning the rider can brake harder without feeling that the bike will stoppie. All it means is that you can get closer to the max braking potential of the SV.

As far as the OP is concerned, I think Red Herring made a good post regarding her bikes geometry and braking.

FWIW I always believe rider training / practice to get the max out of what you have is the way forward before component upgrades.

Did you grab a handfull of clutch in panic too?
This will also increase your braking distance due to the fact that you will be relying entirely on the brakes and none of the engine to slow you.

Originally Posted by speedplay

Did you grab a handfull of clutch in panic too?
This will also increase your braking distance due to the fact that you will be relying entirely on the brakes and none of the engine to slow you.

Can't answer that 100% as it happened all too quickly. But yes I think i did pull it in!

I did think in hindsight I should have changed down and used the engine braking!

What would i have done took it straight down to second or down just one gear?

I don't recall any diving on the front forks, just remember thinking **** don't lock the back wheel!

Originally Posted by Viney

Your brakes will still apply the same ammount of frictional force to the discs no matter what, you are not changing the braking system in anyway.

By this logic, braking on ice shouldn't increase stopping distance, as the same frictional force is applied to the discs.

Braking is basically made up of two separate sets of frictional forces - friction on the discs and friction with the floor through the tyre.

If a bike had no suspension, as soon as you pulled the lever, all the weight of the bike is pushing through the fork onto the ground, through the contact patch (which will expand as the tyre deforms under load, improving friction with the ground and stopping the bike faster).

If a bike has very stuff suspension, when you pull the lever the forks compress as the weight of the bike is pushed forwards. Stiff springs and heavy oil means very little compression is going to take place, and plenty of force is going to be pushed through the forks.

If a bike has overly soft suspension, upon pulling the lever the springs pretty much fall down. Not as much braking occurs until the springs bottom out, at which point weight is being fully transferred through to the contact patch. At this point, hope you don't hit a bump.

I used to easily bottom out stock suspension under braking, which is going to have an effect on how hard you can brake. Switching to progressive springs and heavier oil meant there was no more bottoming out, and I could brake a lot harder in a shorter period of time without worrying about overwhelming the front.

[yorkie_chris]

Originally Posted by Viney

How? The laws of Physics say that that would not be true. Your brakes will still apply the same ammount of frictional force to the discs no matter what, you are not changing the braking system in anyway. Its a perceptional thing imho that you are braking harder when you are not. Maybe its un nerving that the bike dips therfore you dont brake as hard. Again, Verna's SV is stock, mine has uprated oil and springs, yet they both stop just as well.

The laws of physics would also say that if the front of the bike dives like mad there will be a delay between applying the brakes and the front tyre being loaded by braking force, giving a bike spike in tyre forces as the suspension bottoms out. Reducing effective grip and making a sudden lock more likely. And, a reduction of the bikes moment of inertia as the CoG effectively raises up, making a stoppie more likely.

Most important laws of physics, gravity always wins, and tarmac rash hurts

Ruth, make sure you develop the muscle memory to grip the bike with your legs hard and not weight the bars under braking. Weighting the bars like this makes it feel like you are braking much harder than you are. Your arms should be relaxed. This also improves feel of the front end by a huge margin.
This is something which can only be learnt by practice. Again, find a car park and find out for yourself how much braking power you really have.

Even excellent brakes can feel naff with bad technique.

[Viney]

Originally Posted by Neeja

By this logic, braking on ice shouldn't increase stopping distance, as the same frictional force is applied to the discs.

Braking is basically made up of two separate sets of frictional forces - friction on the discs and friction with the floor through the tyre.

If a bike had no suspension, as soon as you pulled the lever, all the weight of the bike is pushing through the fork onto the ground, through the contact patch (which will expand as the tyre deforms under load, improving friction with the ground and stopping the bike faster).

If a bike has very stuff suspension, when you pull the lever the forks compress as the weight of the bike is pushed forwards. Stiff springs and heavy oil means very little compression is going to take place, and plenty of force is going to be pushed through the forks.

If a bike has overly soft suspension, upon pulling the lever the springs pretty much fall down. Not as much braking occurs until the springs bottom out, at which point weight is being fully transferred through to the contact patch. At this point, hope you don't hit a bump.

I used to easily bottom out stock suspension under braking, which is going to have an effect on how hard you can brake. Switching to progressive springs and heavier oil meant there was no more bottoming out, and I could brake a lot harder in a shorter period of time without worrying about overwhelming the front.

I understand what you are saying, however, this will not make you 'brake harder' its just that the frictional forces from your tyre will add into the mix a fraction earlier and these forces are so miniscule that i doubt if it makes any difference unless in your head. If you wanted a lager contact patch, then in theroy letting some air out of your tyre will have the same effect as the stiffer suspension!! Its almost like the ABS/Non ABS debate all over again. If you are a heavy chap like myself, my forks are bottomed out when i get on the damn thing, so eat more pises. Cheaper then springs and oil

Whatever happens, if the OP wants to change his brakes then fine, the point i am trying to make is that in reality it makes so little difference that tis not worth it, well not on the SV anyway and thats form personal back to bak expierence.