For the green laners...

[Luckypants]

Originally Posted by Stenno

The National Parks were opened up to allow people access to areas of outstanding beauty, mainly ramblers.

Read here for more information on the creation of National Parks, you will see it was most definitely NOT mainly the ramblers. Just because an area is a National Park, it does not give you the right to wander about wherever you like nor to drive on any road you like, as you seem to intimate.

Originally Posted by Stenno

I don't think in 1932 they ever envisaged gas guzzling 4x4s tearing up and down the roads, cutting massive trenches into the ground etc.

No I doubt that they did as vehicles can only be used on roads and Rights of Way where vehicular rights exist. These are not affected by National Parks and Access to the Countryside Act of 1949. Basically no right of way on the road, you are driving illegally on private land (see the idiot who drove his 4x4 up Snowdon) and likely to be charged with dangerous driving or similar

Where the 4x4s are being driven in this program, from what I see it is legal to do so and the folks who are objecting are objecting to people pursuing a legal pastime.

@Stenno

Rambling is a sport, mountain biking is a sport, riding your bike on the road unless there is a specific destination, is a sport. Half the of the people in the Peak District at the weekend are there for the sport.

This is part of the argument, people using the land for pursuit of their sport/recreation, want to prevent other people from also enjoying that land in pursuit of theirs. As said earlier, less that 2% of rights of way are open to motorised traffic, the ramblers have the other 98% upon which to practice their sport, yet want to ban green laners and have the whole 100% to themselves. Kinda selfish eh?

"Despite the horses, people and armies, only now do the road get ruined!" - because in the days when these roads were used for transport, they were maintained, and traffic was few and far between. Now these roads are no longer part of the core transport network, they are no longer maintained, and so have naturally fallen in to disrepair as a result of that, then on top of that they carry LOTS of traffic, mainly ramblers, some mountain bikes, etc. Rights of way being eroded and widened is not a problem unique to green lanes, some of the footpaths in the peaks, Snowdonia and Scotland, with no motorised traffic, are so wide and eroded they can be seen from space like a scar across the landscape!

I agree with you that 4x4's churning up the lanes and making them more and more unpassable, in order to make them more of a challenge are a problem. Some of the best lanes in Northants for bikes, are those that have been TRO'd for 4 wheeled vehicles. I agree with lanes being TRO'd because of environmental impact, but think this should only be until they can be reinforced with gravel or stone, such that the 4x4's can again use them without causing damage. It is also an offence to damage a highway, and I'd like to see some of those ripping up these green lanes prosecuted, as they are the ones who are going to spoil it for everyone.

Woah, calm down dear! You seem to be letting your emotions enter this discussion. Firstly I've not mentioned bikes yet, only 4x4s. I agree that ramblers/walkers also cause damage (albeit not to the same extent) and I fully support these issues being addressed as well with the necessary maintenance and controls put in place.

I'm saying I can sympathise with those living locally that at one time could walk or horse ride along a green lane, only for it to be destroyed by vehicle access for pleasure.

And as for the crap about sport, yes I speed on occasion but I don't ride round the houses at 120mph trying to get my knee down (or face down more recently) on mini roundabouts. No I pay for the privilege of using a purpose built track and facilities.

Times change and just because a green lane is an ancient means of access... for pedestrians and horses... I fail to see how tearing it up with a 4x4 is justifiable.

Originally Posted by -Ralph- on another forum

The OAP NIMBYS are just ridiculous. As is the campaign on Chirpit Lane, no reason to close that there at all. The desire to ban all off-road activity in the Peaks is totally discriminate, and if achieved, these people would just find the next thing to moan about. If they could have sports bikes banned from the main roads, and village speed limits dropped to 10mph, they would campaign for it. If they achieved that, what next? Ban mountain bikers 'cos they go too fast too? They just have zero credibility IMO. They are just moaners with nothing better to think about. It gives them something to occupy their time during retirement.

Peak District authority (Shaun Prendegast et al) seems to be doing a good job at taking a unbiased stance , though at the end it seems as though Jim Dixon may be starting to bow to pressure. John Herbert (the guy who was questioning if the TRO investigation was taking place fast enough, then called for a 'review of green lane' policy which is now happening), just shows how important it can be to have one influential voice at the right place at the right time. Unfortunately on that occasion the voice was not for the side most people on this forum would support, and the way the BBC spins it, it seems as if he got his voice heard.

Now this view will be unpopular on this forum! The sections of Chapel Gate shown in the film, and the section that the farmer had videoed where he said he was worried about his walls being knocked down, and the section where the horse was struggling to get his footing... those were totally ripped up! I support the Park Authority in their recommendation and decision to put an experimental TRO on Chapel Gate, that road at least needs time to recover (based upon what was shown in the programme, I haven't ridden it). I don't support closing that lane permanently, and think the track needs strengthening (like the lane where Mike Rhodes said the ford was totally chewed up and it had been surfaced with stone) then re-opened.

The fact that Chapel Gate is subject to a high court appeal, assuming that the BBC showed a fair picture of the state of the lane, doesn't do the pro green lane movement any favours IMO. It makes us look as if we will oppose ANY TRO, regardless of whether it is actually needed or not. It makes us as bad as the OAP NIMBYS. The Peaks Authority didn't recommend that closure to discriminate against us, they recommended based upon environmental impact. We shouldn't be campaigning for the TRO to be lifted so we can make it worse, we should be campaigning for the lane to be strengthened against that environmental impact and re-opened for everyone's use on that basis.

The guys who go out there in their 4x4's and bikes, looking for maximum fun and the muddiest challenge, and aim to get stuck so they can winch each other out, don't do us any favours.

So I don't have to write it again.

Originally Posted by Stenno

Woah, calm down dear! You seem to be letting your emotions enter this discussion. Firstly I've not mentioned bikes yet, only 4x4s. I agree that ramblers/walkers also cause damage (albeit not to the same extent) and I fully support these issues being addressed as well with the necessary maintenance and controls put in place.

Originally Posted by Stenno

I think it's fair to say they're riding these roads for sport, and the more ruts in the road the better the challenge, so it's in their benefit to ruin the green roads even more.

Pardon?

There is a lot of common sense there in your post Ralph.

EDIT: I don't mean that to sound patronising. It makes sense to portray a good image. As for the documentary, the missus and I were laughing at the cucumber sandwich eating 4x4 fans who couldn't put up an argument for the earth being round even if they had to.

Originally Posted by specialone

Pardon?

Driving then. I've got riding on the brain.

[Red Herring]

I think any program on emotive subjects like this will always provoke debate amongst some and argument amongst others. The lady filmed declaring that it was impossible to enjoy a quiet peaceful walk along that lane, whilst doing exactly that, pretty much summed up how narrow minded her argument was, and the clip with the Landrover charging through the rutted puddles just about nailed why the 4x4 brigade get so little support.

What most, on both sides, seem to forget is that these roads are just that, roads. You drive up your local high street with the same gay abandon that some off roaders, both two and four wheels, display and see just how you last before getting nicked. Likewise try standing in the middle of a village with your arms out like that chap did to the approaching motorcyclists and see what happens....... We have more than enough rules to ensure all types of roads can be used safely by everybody, we just need people to be sensible about it.