The Org Scottish Referendum

[DJ123]

Originally Posted by Bibio

i personally will be voting Yes but not for me but for the future of generations to come be it good or bad.

i would rather this was not happening but it is. i would rather see a proper United Kingdom where there are no separate country's, one united people with a united currency and all working for the greater good.

So you are voting yes for independence, yet you want to see a proper UK where no country is separate? With the best will in the world that's a major contradiction.

Originally Posted by Bibio

what debt? national debt? then if so i'm afraid to say that Scotland has not run up any of it.

scotlands run up 10% of it, thats what being in a union means, and aside from a couple of years spending on Scotland by Holyrood and Westminster combined has meant that scotland's deficit is on a par with the rest of the Uk, even taking into account 90% of the oil revenues.

Originally Posted by Bibio

a lot of people forget that Scotland is already Devolved from the rest of the UK so we have been looking after our own budget for yeeeeaaaars. we get £xx from Westminster so we cant over spend and we have seen no extra money from this so called National debt. if you want to play the 'but what about the military etc.etc' then again Scotland pays its tax for such things. it was not Hollyrood that took us into military action against other country's it was Westminster but because Scotland is part of the UK we pay towards the upkeep of the forces via out tax.

you're not fully devolved, not all monies spent in Scotland are spent by the scottish parliament and yes the military counts because the government in Westminster is the government for great Britain.

Originally Posted by Bibio

now if Scotland were to have seen extra money over and above out budget than yes we would indeed owe towards the National Debt. but we haven't. as someone says Scotland is only 10% of the UK population so even if we are forced to pay back some of this so called debt then we only owe 10%.

exactly right, roughly 10% which leaves the rest of the UK in exactly the same position as now debt wise and leaves Scottish individuals with the same national debt per capita but of course you now have a new government with that debt.

I wonder what will happen if Scotland winds up either using the Euro or it's own currency, anyone with a private debt will still have that debt in sterling, and sterling is a little weak at the moment, likelyhood is a new currency would devalue and the £ stands a fair chance of rising against the euro in the coming years so a fair number of scots could wind up out of pocket there.

[NTECUK]

Natural evolution of devolition.
I think they will be happy if they are truly left to address there own issues out.

[SoulKiss]

The whole "you cant use the pound/will have to change x or y" arguments are rubbish.

The fact there is a No Campaign shows that Westminster values the Status Quo on these things.

Am I missing something or in the days after a Yes vote, wouldnt the 2 governments be able to sit down and write a new treaty covering things like a free border between the countries, that things wont change on currency beyons what legally HAS to happen.

The reason that everything is so vague is because up intil the last few weeksd Westminster couldnt be bothered to try and figure it out.

Oh and Spank, on the plus side you could soon have some fine Nuclear Missles parked down the road next to the P&O Cruises terminal.

Oh and probably a CND camp

[Bibio]

that and all the decommissioned nuclear subs that are sitting in Rosyth, the half built ships sitting on the Clyde etc.etc as they don't belong to Scotland they belong to the UK and since Scotland will be independant then they cant be finished due to the UK not allowing any other country to build their navy.

ooohhh wait i forgot about Belfast, Westminster will probably dump everything there.

TBH i personally cant see Scotland getting the Yes vote but it would be nice just to watch the fireworks for the next 20+ years

[Jayneflakes]

If the yes vote is passed, I would love to visit and have a visitors visa in my passport.

I must be honest, I know very little about the politics, but I have seen some Scottish friends campaigning on both sides. What ever happens, I wish my friends, both in the real and on line the very best and I hope that the outcome brings you all safety and stability.

PS, if you do get independence, you can keep the Duke of Edinburgh. He is a right C**t!

[MisterTommyH]

Originally Posted by Spank86

Because we represent approximately 90% of the population and wealth of the Whole UK.

A 10% drop at a time when were cutting back on the military anyway and when the leaving 10% WILL be taking their portion of the debt with them is not a big issue... It would have been a bigger issue if it had happened at the start of the financial crisis but not now.

And yet fiscal uncertainty could have a catastrophic effect on the UK economy. It's not just about 10% this way, 90% that. Its about all the arguments, the tit for tat, the fact that no one knows what will happen at the end of all the bartering. It prevents investment. We're just coming out of a time of massive fiscal problems. Already it's been predicted that a yes vote will alter the (remainder of) the UKs recovery from 2.7% to 2.0%. Anything but a No vote introduces uncertainty and risk to both sides.

As far a military risk - its not just about troop numbers. All of our nuclear deterrents are based in Scotland. As is our ability to build new ships (are we really going to build them in a foreign country). Also a large proportion of our long range search and rescue assets. With a Yes vote there will have to be a discussion of whether we somehow have a joint military (difficult given the differing opinions of nuclear deterrents) if not the S&R needs to be moved south of the border - is the infrastructure still there? Will the reduction in range severely effect operations?

Originally Posted by Bibio

what debt? national debt? then if so i'm afraid to say that Scotland has not run up any of it.

a lot of people forget that Scotland is already Devolved from the rest of the UK so we have been looking after our own budget for yeeeeaaaars. we get £xx from Westminster so we cant over spend and we have seen no extra money from this so called National debt. if you want to play the 'but what about the military etc.etc' then again Scotland pays its tax for such things. it was not Hollyrood that took us into military action against other country's it was Westminster but because Scotland is part of the UK we pay towards the upkeep of the forces via out tax.

now if Scotland were to have seen extra money over and above out budget than yes we would indeed owe towards the National Debt. but we haven't. as someone says Scotland is only 10% of the UK population so even if we are forced to pay back some of this so called debt then we only owe 10%.

Firstly, I agree with what you are saying about Scotland only being liable for a pro-rata population share. That seems logical to me.

As for you have no national debt? National debt has been around for far longer than the current banking crisis, global economies work on nearly all countries being in debt and a lot of the existing debt (thats still being paid off) dates back to before devolution. And even if you don't agree with that - Scotlands 'allowance' can't be viewed as a simple X amount in, Y amount out in splendid isolation from the UK and the rest of the worlds economies. Mr Salmond may get votes by his belligerent 'we owe nothing' attitude, but it's the people who we (collectively) owe who will ultimately have a say and have the power to affect both countries credit ratings (and don't believe that Scotland can existing without credit). Again - risk for both countries.

Originally Posted by SoulKiss

The whole "you cant use the pound/will have to change x or y" arguments are rubbish.

The fact there is a No Campaign shows that Westminster values the Status Quo on these things.

Am I missing something or in the days after a Yes vote, wouldnt the 2 governments be able to sit down and write a new treaty covering things like a free border between the countries, that things wont change on currency beyons what legally HAS to happen.

Yes they would, but I don't believe that the argument is that a new Scotland couldn't use the pound. They could quite happily use it without a say in the fiscal policy - similar to the way that Russians used to use the USD as their currency was unstable, but could not affect any US policy. What is being said is that a new Scotland could not use the pound and expect to have a say on interest rates, or any actions such a quantitative easing. This would put us in financial union. The UK has specifically opted out of the Euro to avoid a financial union. Surely the rest of the UK should be given a vote to determine if we want to enter into a financial union.

That aside, financial unions don't work. Look at how many powers european countries (Greece, Spain etc) are having to ceed to (in effect) Germany. They don't control their own taxation. One of the main arguments used by the Yes campaign is that they want to change the way tax works, the way the NHS works, the way university tuition works etc - how two countries (read governments) using the same currency with such different attitudes towards taxation and public funding get together and agree a fiscal policy has simply not been explained by Mr Salmond - does he expect the BOE to kow-tow to a new Scottish policy? Do they move 10% of the way towards what Scotland wants based on population? Ultimately neither side will get a policy that suits them and again their is risk for both sides.

You may have guessed I'm in favour of No, but if a Yes it is then I believe in Scotland right to independence. I don't believe that they have strong (or capable) leadership and I also believe that any items that start to affect the rest of the UK (such as a financial/currency union) should be put to a vote but all affected by them.

[Bibio]

i could be wrong about this but its not up to Westminster whether Scotland joins the GBP or not. its up to the BOE if they still want to keep the Scottish banks as clients. if i'm not mistaken Westminster gave up the right to meddle in the BOE affairs and now the BOE is a separate entity and its just that Westminster keeps the public purse in the BOE. the BOE are responsible for setting interest rates not Westminster.

so if i'm right its up to the BOE if they want to keep Scotland's banks as clients and if so then nothing will change currency wise. the question is if Scotland get independence which bank will Holyrood use to keep the purse in or will Scotland end up with a new bank for such purpose. and if Scotland end up with a bank solely to keep the purse in then what 'note' will the said purse be in or will Holyrood dictate that the 3 note producing banks start producing a single note.

at the moment there are 3 note producing banks in Scotland. each one of these banks have to keep a retainer in the BOE to make the notes they produce have value.

now if the BOE say no to the Scottish banks then the BOE owe the three note producing banks of Scotland the retainer that each one of the three have to keep in the BOE to give value to Scottish notes. the 3 Scottish notes will become legal tender but only in Scotland. this will cause a massive problem in stability of each note due to the financial status of each bank. this is where Holyrood should step in with a unified note and to use said note would be just like how Scottish banks use the BOE at the moment and take a retainer to make the note have value. as Scotland economy grows or falls then this will dictate what the currency will be worth throughout the global banking market.

[timwilky]

Now from my perspective, I would love the Scots to vote yes, simply because it will remove 30 MPs who have no right to be voting on things that effects us in England. that is why liebour is bricking it over independence, their numbers in Westminster will be decimated.. A Scottish MP is responsible for near on bankrupting this country. Why risk the same mistake ever happening again.

[NTECUK]

If this goes through. What's going to happen with the Scottish MP s currently sitting in parliment?