Russian army casulties

[svenrico]

Embee,
Leaving aside Johnson's comments and the EU, we might not have been invaded for many years but do understand what being occupied means and most are against Russia's invasion of Ukraine and understand what it means and don't want to go back to the days of the old soviet union and Berlin wall and all that meant. Although not occupied by another country Britain knew to fight for the freedom of Europe in the world wars, so I don't accept all your criticisms of this country.
ps what is more nationalistic, jingoistic, bigoted and xenophobic than Putin's propaganda ?!

[svenrico]

Originally Posted by garynortheast

Very well put Embee. That sums up very well what I and quite a few others feel I think.

Not entirely, preaching to us in this country about the atrocities of Nazi Germany doesn't seem right to me. That's what this country fought against.

[embee]

My comments were in direct reply to Bibio's proposals about "the" Ukraine just giving in, surrendering to the aggresion of the dictator who you (svenrico) so rightly point out has horrific ethics. His line was "what's the worst that could happen" as though they just say OK, we give in, then everything is back to normal and off down the pub for a swift half. It's not like that, and most of mainland Europe know in glorious technicolour what occupation by an authoritarian aggressor means.
My comments were to point out that we (mostly) in the UK don't have that direct experience, we haven't stood and watched hundreds and thousands of Jews being rounded up and beaten to death with clubs or marched out into the woods and shot in a pit. The eastern Europeans have. They lived, and died, with it for years.

There is a view, particularly in England (as opposed to the other countries of the UK) that we are different to others. We're not, we just haven't been through some of the same sh*t up close and personal. Veterans of war usually have a slightly different take.

I'm sorry if my passion about such things gets in your way, it's a consequence of getting old. I just feel that we in the UK tend to sympathise but can't truly empathise. WW2 didn't mean the same thing here as in, for example, Poland or Hungary. I live near Coventry, it was bombed, 554 known casualties and some unaccounted for. A bomb dropped about 50 yards from where I sit at home today. But we didn't have Nazi soldiers and SS troops summarily executing people outside in the street.

I am truly embarrased and ashamed about the way the UK govt is dealing with the refugee application process. Hearing first hand experiences of UK folk trying to negotiate the bureaucratic nightmare set up to get refugees over here is cringeworthy. And of course it's all in English .....
A news reporter the other day said they had gone along the Ukraine border (Poland, Hungary, others??) and just down the road from the crossings were official government stations with people to help the refugees, representing 19 different countries. Not a single UK representative.

At least we're giving them some weapons.

I've probably said more than enough.

[svenrico]

Embee ,
I understand your point that we in this country haven't experienced directly some of the horrors we are taking about but I don't see why you then go on to say we in England in particular think we are different to others.
There were plenty of 'little Englanders' who went onto the beaches of Normandy to fight in Europe.
This country hasn't invaded Ukraine.
I am sorry if I misunderstand what you are saying ,I just think the criticism should be directed elsewhere, which in this case is the ba*ta*d Russians.

[embee]

I take your points.

As for the "little Englander" dig, it's just a bugbear of mine I'm afraid, I know plenty of them including family members. One family member loathes Europeans even though they have never been to any other European country and as far as I am aware they don't know any continental people, not much you can do with that sort of attitude.
The term refers to an attitude not a nationality, I doubt many of those arriving at the Normandy beaches in WW2 were "little Englanders", in fact the majority weren't Englanders at all.

In no way would I criticise anyone who has defended freedom, especially since I have never been in that position so my moral high ground is somewhat shaky.

[embee]

Originally Posted by svenrico

Embee ,
....I just think the criticism should be directed elsewhere, which in this case is the ba*ta*d Russians.

I'll just make one last response on this, to be absolutely clear.

I think my drawing parallels between Putin's actions and those of Hitler's Nazi regime in WW2 satisfy your thoughts. My specific criticism was prompted by the suggestion by others that Ukraine should perhaps just give in and acquiesce to the Putin aggression.
I take it you don't agree with that proposition either, we are broadly on the same page I think.

[svenrico]

Originally Posted by embee

I'll just make one last response on this, to be absolutely clear.

I think my drawing parallels between Putin's actions and those of Hitler's Nazi regime in WW2 satisfy your thoughts. My specific criticism was prompted by the suggestion by others that Ukraine should perhaps just give in and acquiesce to the Putin aggression.
I take it you don't agree with that proposition either, we are broadly on the same page I think.

I may have misunderstood you previously. You are right, I don't agree with the suggestion that Ukraine should just give in and things would just go back to how they were.

[embee]

[Bibio]

face facts Putin is not going to give in or at lest any time soon.... surrendering will save lives, is that not what is most important or do you wish to see more slaughter of innocent lives and the possibility of things escalating into a MAD?

there can only be two outcomes too the situation in the Ukraine. 1. Putin wins. 2. Putin looses interest. well there is a third but it unlikely that Ukraine win as they are all running away. when this conflict is all over are the Ukrainians going to return home???????

lets face facts here. Putin is the President of Russia just now but who is to say that he will still be there is 10 years and the new President will have a different view. to which negotiations might arise. everyone is about the NOW not what might/could be. civilisations rise and fall, its what happens.

Russia has invaded other countries in the past so why is everyone getting their knickers in a twist about it now? media... thats how. the Russian conflict with Afghanistan cost the lives of an estimated 0.5-2mil people. do we really want to see that happen again?

the ironic thing is that after helping the Afghans the UK and America both went in and had a conflict under the guise of fighting the Taliban... or was it more to the fact that they owed us money for weapons we sold them during the Russian war with them.

BTW if say the Chinese invaded Scotland tomorrow we would surrender. why? well simple there is 1000 of them to one of us and they have a lot more weapons. would i be happy about it.. dont know till it happens and the circumstances it brings. after all Scotland is ruled by England. also Wales was concurred but do they moan about being British.

life goes on.

btw i condemn all war. but i would never resort to calling the leader of a country a BAS***D or C**NT due to their actions. we all have to remember that the UK done its fair share or murdering people back in the day so "pot.. black"...... time is no excuse....

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by Bibio

face facts Putin is not going to give in or at lest any time soon.... surrendering will save lives, is that not what is most important or do you wish to see more slaughter of innocent lives and the possibility of things escalating into a MAD?

there can only be two outcomes too the situation in the Ukraine. 1. Putin wins. 2. Putin looses interest. well there is a third but it unlikely that Ukraine win as they are all running away. when this conflict is all over are the Ukrainians going to return home???????

lets face facts here. Putin is the President of Russia just now but who is to say that he will still be there is 10 years and the new President will have a different view. to which negotiations might arise. everyone is about the NOW not what might/could be. civilisations rise and fall, its what happens.

Russia has invaded other countries in the past so why is everyone getting their knickers in a twist about it now? media... thats how. the Russian conflict with Afghanistan cost the lives of an estimated 0.5-2mil people. do we really want to see that happen again?

the ironic thing is that after helping the Afghans the UK and America both went in and had a conflict under the guise of fighting the Taliban... or was it more to the fact that they owed us money for weapons we sold them during the Russian war with them.

BTW if say the Chinese invaded Scotland tomorrow we would surrender. why? well simple there is 1000 of them to one of us and they have a lot more weapons. would i be happy about it.. dont know till it happens and the circumstances it brings. after all Scotland is ruled by England. also Wales was concurred but do they moan about being British.

life goes on.

btw i condemn all war. but i would never resort to calling the leader of a country a BAS***D or C**NT due to their actions. we all have to remember that the UK done its fair share or murdering people back in the day so "pot.. black"...... time is no excuse....

Well, I disagree with this in its entirety.

Assuming this is what you truly believe, what would be your red line? Assuming Putin takes Ukraine which, despite your claims of the Ukrainians "running away" is not what I'm reading, women and children are leaving but men between 18 and 60 are not allowed to leave anyway. Not only that but recent reports suggest the Ukrainians are retaking land back in a couple of areas.

So, back to your red line assuming Putin takes Ukraine. How many more countries would you allow him to take? Ask him to stop when he reaches the Atlantic coast?

He has publically stated that Ukraine isn't a real country but still part of the Russian empire and uses the fact that there are many Russian speakers as partial justification of his current actions (to prevent the "genocide" of the Russian speakers). He used similar lines when he annexed part of Georgia and again in Crimea.

Putin has altered Russia's constitution such that he can remain in power indefinitely, prior to that it was two terms only. If you recall, he served two terms, then switched to prime minister whilst his protege Medvedev took the reigns and then returned to power. He has been trying to rehabilitate Stalin, his hero (ignoring the millions he killed) and would like to reunify the Soviet Union after he called its break up "the great geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century." The implication is that none of the old Soviet bloc states are safe unless he is stopped.

The only way he can win this is to level every Ukrainian city and/or use nuclear/chemical/biological weapons. I suspect he will want some kind of deal by May 1st (since it was an important USSR celebration) whether it be a victory or a face-saving fudge remains to be seen.