Increased Taser usage questions

Originally Posted by Spiderman

Give a bad kid a few slaps when he's young enough and he may grow out of his anti-social ways, leave it too late and whatever you do is just guaranteed to bring more violence back to you.

Why do you think younger and younge kids are stabbing and shooting each other on a daily basis? You cant be "street" and get dissed like that in front of your crew, so you goes home and get your best weapon to save face.

Like the old Untouchables line... They bring a knife, you bring a gun. They put one of yours in hospital, you put one of theirs in the morgue. Sadly i think thats what the attitude on the streets is and if you go fighting it with force now you're only asking for more trouble in return.

Personaly i'd make jails hell to be in. No electronic nothing. Meagre rations that can be withdrawn as punishment. No reduction in sentances for "good behaviour" rather an increas in sentances for failing to toe the line.

How can any young offender fear jail if its better than home? They get to share a cell with "mates" from the streets and have better access to TV / playstations/porn than they do at home. Yeh, great deterant that is.

Harsh and long prison sentances are the key i think. Make prison the ultimate threat and ensure those who get sent there are sent after a fair trial. yes there will still be miscarriages of justice but like i said in a previous post no system is infalable.

Agree with the prison part. yes they should be a place of punishment and a deterant for re-offending.

Grinch is a smelly poo-poo head.



Hey, I heard someone else say it first, besides, this seems to be a rational, adult debate without anyone insulting anyone else yet...

... can't have that now can we? :P

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by neio79

You are right I am in the military (and very proud to be so); however I don’t think I have been brain washed at all. Yes we have to do things for a reason and do things when we are told for a reason. But I like you probably understand the reasons for that, cos there will be cases where not doing as you are told when you are told to do it will get people killed. The army always has encouraged free thinking and individually. It does not want robots, but people who can think for themselves as well as understand and respect the need for discipline and authority (something I think is lacking in the main within this country) I on the other hand do feel sorry for lefty liberal’s who cant quite grasp the need for at least some form of discipline in life, or the fact that people should deal with the consequences of their unlawful actions rather than trying to blame some stupid thing that happened in their past that caused them to act the way they did.

Ok, not totaly agreeing with you on the Army/brianwashing thing but you're in it and i aint so the benefit of the doubt gos to you on that point.
Totaly agree about the "do the deed, suffer the consequences like a man" thing tho.
A lot of not nice things have happened in my life but they make me the person that i am and make me not want to inflict bad things on others. I dont use them as an excuse for my nehaviour as seems to be the accepted norm nowdays. "its not his fault his mum/dad/brother used to be cruel to him all his life" ... no its not but its his fault that he thinks becuse of that he can go around in a group an mug anyone weaker than them. Thats his choice, his free will and F all to do with what he went thru, imho.

Originally Posted by neio79

I do understand that mistakes will be made, but what do the lefty liberals propose as a solution to the ever growing rise in social disorder, lack of respect for others and the rules and laws of this land? You can not tell me that the loss of things like proper discipline at home and schools has not lead to the increase in anti social disorder along with the lack of punishment dished out for committing crime leading to people thinking they can get away with it.

Agreed, if discipline is never handed out when kids are young, its wont be accepted when they get older.

Originally Posted by neio79

I don’t agree with the erosion of our freedoms, if anything it has gone the other way with dire consequences to the point now that the law seems to look after the perpetrator more than the victim, in any ones eyes that is wrong.

Our freedoms are being erroded mate, thats for sure. Just look at laws stopping us from protesting anywhere near ministers who should see these protests. Look at when the chinese premier visited a few years ago and banners were torn out of the hands of protestors by the police beacuse the chinese dude would be insulted to see them. "Well you've come to a free democartic country, Sir thats what we allow our citizens to do here" is what he should have been told. But no the order was given to the cops to act like criminals and they did. Did any of them that we know about stand up and say "Thats illegal an I for one will not break the law i'm supposed to uphold" or did the brainwashing, fit in with your ranks attaitude take over?

Originally Posted by neio79

I make no apologies for my views over the state of the UK and the ways I believe it should be addressed, I think that if any one has been brain washed it is the liberal lefty’s who believe the sh*t that is spouted about how we should respect the criminal and make them feel all loved and wanted, trying to understand why they done it etc blah blah.

Agreed as 2 paragraps above.

Originally Posted by neio79

Yes I agree that the Brazilian getting shot was really bad, hence my comment that would you not have preferred to see him tazared instead? I am sure he would have as well.

Originally Posted by neio79

But neither of us were there so can’t really comment, but I assume he was given good clear warnings to stop running etc. And I don’t think the officer who shot him should be held responsible as he was probably doing as he was trained ( you might call t it brain washing) The Army have similar rules of engagement and the big get out clause is that if you thought your life or anyone else’s was in imminent danger then deadly force can be used. (Although I have to admit that would be very hard to prove if he was running away).

Alow me to fill you in one this as you clealry have not read all the available facts... Operation Kratos was designed to deal with suspected suicide bombers and the trainign was given to our cops mainly by the Israeli security forces an Mossad. Their training advises that warnign a pottential bomber that you are police gives him enough time to press the buton and detonate the explosives. So no warning is to be given and headshots, numerous headshots at that, are advised as the massive and continued trauma will interfere with the ability to press the button.
Now fair enough...IF your intellegance is beyond ANY shadow of a doubt. The serving soldier who was watching the property was busy taking a pee at the time JC left the property and advised this up lone to his controllers. JC was already on the train and by all accounts and reading a free newspaper he picked up on the way into the tube station when he was approched by one plain clothes officers. This 1st guy jumps on him and pins him to his seat with his arms held againt his sides and the 2nd, and possibly the 3rd, officers enter with guns drawn and fire a total of 11 shots at his head, 3 of which miss the target.

The operational factors imo were good to deal with the type of person they were after but if no-one can positively identify the suspect as being who they think he may be then what to do. In this instance Commander Cressida **** thought it justified to give the ambiguous order of "stop him getting on the train" to her officers who were about to put their lives on the line (or so they thought). The individulas who pulled the triggers i have no issue with, what led to that is so badly ut together and poor in its execution that those responsible for this poor boys death should be serving jail terms right now.

Your life it appears is only worth some guy taking a pee at the wrong time and those in charge of him not giving a damn as they (like the street urchins) know they wont be held accountable or if they are they will only get a slapped wrist.
So again, please dont tell me that if i'm innocent i have nothing to worry about. I share skin colour, hair and eye colour with that dead boy and i also come originaly from one of the countries in the "axis of evil" so i'm prime meat for those wanting to make mistakes at my expense.

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by K

Grinch is a smelly poo-poo head.



Hey, I heard someone else say it first, besides, this seems to be a rational, adult debate without anyone insulting anyone else yet...

... can't have that now can we? :P

Who would dare say such things about our smelly Grinch friend eh?

And yes, please lets all hope this can remain the sensible adut debate its been so far.

K, 100 lines for tomorrow please, saying "I promise not to s**t stir for comdey value ever again" or its the cane young lady.

Oh who am i kidding, i'll bring the cane, you get the blow up doll patched up (again) and we're in business

Originally Posted by neio79

I do understand that mistakes will be made, but what do the lefty liberals propose as a solution to the ever growing rise in social disorder, lack of respect for others and the rules and laws of this land? You can not tell me that the loss of things like proper discipline at home and schools has not lead to the increase in anti social disorder along with the lack of punishment dished out for committing crime leading to people thinking they can get away with it.

I don’t agree with the erosion of our freedoms, if anything it has gone the other way with dire consequences to the point now that the law seems to look after the perpetrator more than the victim, in any ones eyes that is wrong.

I make no apologies for my views over the state of the UK and the ways I believe it should be addressed, I think that if any one has been brain washed it is the liberal lefty’s who believe the sh*t that is spouted about how we should respect the criminal and make them feel all loved and wanted, trying to understand why they done it etc blah blah.

Just because someone doesn't agree with incresed police powers doesn't mean they're lefty liberal. The biggest thing that'll deter a criminal is the risk of being caught, NOT the punishment they're likely to receive. All we need is a smarter police force, not a more powerful one. That's what's needed to reduce crime - certainly something that a police state and hellish jails wouldn't supply us with.

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

... All we need is a smarter police force, not a more powerful one. That's what's needed to reduce crime - certainly something that a police state and hellish jails would supply us with.

Wrong, we need a more powerful police force controlled by smarter beauraucrats(sp?)...

JC Demenezes should not have been in the country in the first place and it was a case of wrong place, wrong time in that situation among other factors.

As for the police carrying tazers? Yes, why not? If I keep my nose clean then I don't have to worry.

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by Jdubya

Wrong, we need a more powerful police force controlled by smarter beauraucrats(sp?)...

JC Demenezes should not have been in the country in the first place and it was a case of wrong place, wrong time in that situation among other factors.

As for the police carrying tazers? Yes, why not? If I keep my nose clean then I don't have to worry.

Wow, it amazes me how the lies the cops and papers tell sticks so well even this long after the fact when they hav e appologised for the lie and withdrawn it.

His student visa had expired but he had a valid vais for being here at the time. And he wasnt in the wrong place mate. he and many other peeps were on their way to work like good citizens. Its the poor intellegence that led to his death, nothing else.

Originally Posted by Spiderman

Wow, it amazes me how the lies the cops and papers tell sticks so well even this long after the fact when they hav e appologised for the lie and withdrawn it.

His student visa had expired but he had a valid vais for being here at the time. And he wasnt in the wrong place mate. he and many other peeps were on their way to work like good citizens. Its the poor intellegence that led to his death, nothing else.

So if I'm innocent and the cops are running at me do I run?

Originally Posted by Jdubya

Wrong, we need a more powerful police force controlled by smarter beauraucrats(sp?)...

The police have all the powers they need to do their job. As for smarter beauraucrats, ha!

Originally Posted by Jdubya

JC Demenezes should not have been in the country in the first place and it was a case of wrong place, wrong time in that situation among other factors.

Oh that makes it all ok then. Lets just allow the police to arbitrarily shoot suspects, that'll work nicely. But as Spidey says, he wasn't even here illegally.

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

Just because someone doesn't agree with incresed police powers doesn't mean they're lefty liberal. The biggest thing that'll deter a criminal is the risk of being caught, NOT the punishment they're likely to receive. All we need is a smarter police force, not a more powerful one. That's what's needed to reduce crime - certainly something that a police state and hellish jails wouldn't supply us with.

A new slant on that, yes knowledge is power, so therefore the police should start acting like the Gestapo then? i.e a secret police as to gather effective intelligence on people it needs to be done covertly.

So should we have a SOCA and MI5 type branch of every police force? As this would be the only decent way to gather Intelligence. That in itself opens up a whole new can of worms.

A bit like the Old Romeo towers in NI, keeping watch on the IRA in South Armagh. No denying it deterred them and probably did help reduce terrorist attacks around the area, but on the other hand it did lead to the IRA becoming cleverer, which in turn led to the UK security forces becoming even cleverer. To be expected with the amount of money we threw at it.

I for one welcome that for the detection and deterrent of big crime and terrorism, but even I would find that extreme for chavs and anti social crimes.
Not to mention a waste of time, when good discipline and mentoring from parents and schools would help, but again I then come back to the fact that that is what is missing from the UK today.