Electric Vehicles

[ethariel]

EV are not exactly a joke, they are great as a 'Town Runabout', you know for journeys you can most probably make on a bus/train/tube but want to sit in queues on your own instead.

Till battery technology makes a 2 or 3 generation leap, EV is never ever going to come close to replacing the Fossil Fuelled Vehicle market.

Hydrogen fuel cells are by far a better option at present for exhaust pollution reduction, the energy to extract the hydrogen however will most likley still come from the grid.

All that aside, till you can come up with something that hads a range of at a miniumum 300, preferably 500 miles, it's going to take some serious fuel price rises/tax changes to get rid of FF cars, second hand values however will stay really good for decades!

[keith_d]

For me EVs have two major problems which prevent them replacing fossil fuel vehicles

1) Limited range
2) Slow recharge time

The obvious answer is to design a standard battery pack which can be exchanged quickly and easily. You simply pay for the additional energy when you swap batteries at the filling station. The filling station then charges the used batteries and keeps them ready for future customers.

Unfortunately, unless one of the major economies (US, Japan) can force the car makers to come up with a consensus design we're unlikely to see this in our lifetimes.

[Biker Biggles]

Originally Posted by keith_d

For me EVs have two major problems which prevent them replacing fossil fuel vehicles

1) Limited range
2) Slow recharge time

The obvious answer is to design a standard battery pack which can be exchanged quickly and easily. You simply pay for the additional energy when you swap batteries at the filling station. The filling station then charges the used batteries and keeps them ready for future customers.

Unfortunately, unless one of the major economies (US, Japan) can force the car makers to come up with a consensus design we're unlikely to see this in our lifetimes.

Agreed. I have been saying much the same for years. For EVs to become mainstream they have to compete with what we have now and that means comvenience. Jump in and go just like a normal car and go the the garage and fill up just like a normal car. That doesnt mean plug in and wait half an hour or so.

[Bibio]

motorways.. hard shoulder will become flat battery shoulder..

i'm still considering an EV next year as the furthest i "visit/shop" is a round trip of 120miles. for long distance i'll keep my fossil burner.

[Luckypants]

Jeez! Luddites unite. I'll bite as I'm probably the only one of you that has any experience of an EV. I've had my VW ID.4 since March and we've covered 8500 miles.

Originally Posted by Bibio

hotel owners are missing out. i cant find any hotels B&B etc.etc in mid north scotland that have charging points.

who is responsible for installing public charge points?

Plenty of hotels have charge points, but those that don't as you say are missing out. As it happens I've been looking for hotels on Skye with a charger - there were 4 I was interested in but all were fully booked for the times I wanted (maybe because they have chargers?) However, this was not a problem as Skye has plenty of public chargers available and there is one 5 minutes from the hotel I booked.

The responsibility for installing public charge points is with the landowner. Usually what happens is the charge point operator will rent some parking bays etc from the landowner to install their chargers. This often has a benefit for both parties as the drivers charging become customers. For example, Instavolt are installing chargers predominantly in MacDonald's and Costa Coffee car parks. Check out the PodPoint and Tesco partnership to put (free) chargers into Tesco stores.

Originally Posted by Bibio

unless you have 3 phase at your house (no chance) then you are restricted to 7kw charging which takes hours and hours to charge.

if your out and about and need a fast charge 22kw+ your pretty much stuffed as they are very very few and far between. i can guarantee each maker will have their own network of charge points on their smart app so will guide you to it instead of the nearest...

motability will be the first to roll out massive amounts of EV's but to date i have not seen one single charging point at disabled parking bays.

so leccy vehicles are only good for glorified shopping trolleys.

going on longer drives you will be constantly paranoid.......

i looked into hybrid... its a worse joke than EV.

Tesla is the ONLY feasible EV due to its range 280 miles and that was over 5 years ago.

EV is a joke....

Good rant mate

7kW charger takes 11 hours to fill my car from empty to full. A long time for sure, but as Mrs. Luckypants gets home from work at 5pm and plugs in (if needed) it would be ready to go again at 4am. She doesn't need the car until 7.30am...... furthermore, you obviously do not charge from 0% more likely 20% or higher. Neither do you charge to 100% unless you need the full range for your trip, charging to 80% helps with battery longevity. So 20-80% charge takes 6.5 hours - a long time but easily achievable overnight or while your car is parked at work.

There are quite literally thousands of rapid (50kW or higher speed) chargers in the UK. There were 150 rapid charging stations added in November (https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/) I've only needed to use public rapid charging once (and one other time to try it out) and had no issue finding one on my route home. I needed a 10 minute charge to get me home (not hours).

Tesla are no doubt the leaders in long range EVs. Their flagship model is rated for 400 miles on a single charge. The other manufacturers are hot on their heels though. My car has a rated range of 320 miles for instance. Plenty of other EVs have similar range. Skoda, Kia, Hyundai, Ford, Renault, Audi Porsche, Mercedes, Nissan etc etc all have vehicles capable of 250+ miles.

I'm not paranoid about longer drives, but thanks for the concern. As mentioned I'll be going to Scotland from North Wales and have no worries about it - I'll be doing the same route with the same stops as when I went in my diesel car.

Originally Posted by ethariel

EV are not exactly a joke, they are great as a 'Town Runabout', you know for journeys you can most probably make on a bus/train/tube but want to sit in queues on your own instead.

Till battery technology makes a 2 or 3 generation leap, EV is never ever going to come close to replacing the Fossil Fuelled Vehicle market.

Hydrogen fuel cells are by far a better option at present for exhaust pollution reduction, the energy to extract the hydrogen however will most likley still come from the grid.

All that aside, till you can come up with something that hads a range of at a miniumum 300, preferably 500 miles, it's going to take some serious fuel price rises/tax changes to get rid of FF cars, second hand values however will stay really good for decades!

As stated, plenty of EVs with 300 miles ranges available today (WLTP range). Why do you need 500 mile range? Can you sit there at a UK average of at best 60mph for 8.5 hours without a break? Really? No, take a break and charge the car while you pee/have lunch/get coffee/take a nap/etc ad infinitum. The car charges while you do something else so does not add to total journey time.

Originally Posted by Biker Biggles

Agreed. I have been saying much the same for years. For EVs to become mainstream they have to compete with what we have now and that means comvenience. Jump in and go just like a normal car and go the the garage and fill up just like a normal car. That doesnt mean plug in and wait half an hour or so.

Why do EVs need to fill up 'like a normal car'? They fill up while you are asleep. You can have a full 'tank' every day if you want to. We find home charging far more convenient than going to a filling station. (especially when Mrs LP brings the car home empty because she forgot to fill up) If you need to go more than the 250-300 (or 400 in your Tesla or Merc) then you will need a break, so charge up then and continue the journey without impact.

EDIT: A word about charging speeds on rapid chargers, as I have unconsciously made the assumption you know about them. Nearly all EVs have two types of charging built in. AC charging which can be up to about 45kw depending on the on board charger built into the car. These are normally 11kW as that is the most common 3-phase standard in Europe, where domestic 3-phase is common.

The other type of charging is DC rapid charging, where DC current is applied directly to the battery without the use of the car's on-board charger to convert AC to DC. The fastest chargers available are 350kW, but not many cars can go that fast at present. Most cars can charge at a rate of between 100 and 200kW, which means a full charge in under an hour for most cars, dependant on charge speed and battery size. For instance, Tesla model 3 has a top charge rate of 250kW but cannot hold it for long before battery heating means a bit of throttling to protect the battery. A Tesla model 3 charges 10-80% in about 30 minutes on a Tesla Supercharger (adds 200 miles of range). The new Hyundai / Kia can charge at 210 / 220kW and does 10%-80% in 17 minutes (adds 190 miles).

My ID.4 can charge at up to 125kW which gives 10-80% charge in 38 minutes. This adds 210 miles of range.

[svenrico]

Originally Posted by Luckypants

'Why do EVs need to fill up 'like a normal car'? They fill up while you are asleep. You can have a full 'tank' every day if you want to. We find home charging far more convenient than going to a filling station.'

This goes back to the problem that everybody doesn't have off street parking to be able to charge at home.
There is a government scheme of grants for installing charging points but I would be surprised if everybody will ever be able to charge at home.

[embee]

Originally Posted by keith_d

....The obvious answer is to design a standard battery pack which can be exchanged quickly and easily. ......

Not practical in the near future. A Tesla battery pack weighs 500kg give or take, not something easily swappable.

I recently bought a car for doing my local jobs. I could have managed with an EV if the cost was sensible. The only EVs at all in the price range would be early Leaf or similar, most of those were 24kWh batteries, which with some deterioration would give me around 50-60mls usable real range at best. That would pose too many potential limitations, if I did 30mls one day I'd have to charge it before even contemplating another outing, so essentially charging every trip. No thanks.
I paid half as much for a 10yr old ICE car which does 50+mpg running around locally. Maybe the next one will be EV. I'd happily have a practical one if it was affordable.

The CO2 cost should be made a bit clearer too. All your EV charge comes from gas fired power stations for the time being. The equivalent CO2 is around 550g/kWh from a gas power station, and at 3-4mls per kWh from the car ends up at close to 75-100g/km ballpark for an EV compared to around 125g/km for a typical small ICE car in real world use, significantly better but not an order of magnitude different. The air where the car is used is cleaner though.

[Luckypants]

That is a good point and I have to admit to being one I often overlook, as I've always had a drive (lucky I guess). There are various companies and councils working to get on-street charging infrastructure in place to allow residents to charge overnight, which will address some of this. Workplace charging is another potential solution for some people without a drive, although the new normal WFH situation will impact this. A very good solution is more rapid chargers at supermarkets. Lidl, Morrisons and larger Tesco are the only ones I know of currently that have rapids but this helps enormously. 50kW rapids while you shop will give enough charge for most people to last a week, depends on the length of the commute / school run.

I suppose I felt a little of this unable to charge at home problem after Storm Arwen when I was without power for 3 days. We used the car as normal and topped up at the Tesco and Aldi chargers (7kW and 22kW) while shopping etc. We did go for lunch one time and left the car charging as that was the only way to get a hot meal, so not a fully practical test but I didn't find it worrying or challenging that I had no home charger. If the car was getting low, I could have gone to the rapid charger at Morrison's and charged while shopping or just having coffee.

But finally, technology is moving very fast in this area. Take the current Hyundai / Kia cars that can do 10-80% charge in 17 minutes. That's almost 'normal car' type filling. I have no doubt that next gen cars will be better again.

I still don't think we need filling station type speeds as electric cars charge without supervision, so you can do other stuff while charging. Chargers in public spaces will solve the issue IMHO.

[svenrico]

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Grant schemes for electric vehicle charging infrastructure
OZEV grant schemes for the installation of electric vehicle charging infrastructure: guidance and application forms.

From:
Office for Zero Emission Vehicles
Published
14 October 2016
Last updated
24 November 2021 — See all updates
Contents
Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme
Workplace Charging Scheme
Chargepoint authorisation
On-street Residential Chargepoint Scheme
Ultra Low Emission Taxi Infrastructure Scheme
The government offers grants to support the wider use of electric and hybrid vehicles via the Office of Zero Emission Vehicles (OZEV).

Data protection and privacy
Find out more about how we handle any data you send us regarding these schemes.

Guidance on plug-in vehicle grants
Read information on applying for a plug-in vehicle grant.

Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme
The Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme (EVHS) provides grant funding of up to 75% towards the cost of installing electric vehicle smart chargepoints at domestic properties across the UK.

From April 2022, the EVHS will no longer be open to homeowners (including people with mortgages) who live in single-unit properties such as bungalows and detached, semi-detached or terraced housing.

Installations in single-unit properties need to be completed by 31 March 2022 and a claim submitted to the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency (DVLA) by 30 April 2022.

The scheme will remain open to:

homeowners who live in flats
people in rental accommodation (flats and single-use properties)
We will transition to a new digital service, details of which will be available in due course.

Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme: vehicle applications
6 April 2020 Guidance
Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme: authorised installers
13 December 2021 Transparency data
Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme approved chargepoint model list
11 November 2021 Guidance
Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme: eligible vehicles
30 November 2021 Guidance
Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme: minimum technical specification
20 October 2020 Guidance
Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme: guidance for installers
24 November 2021 Guidance
Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme: customer guidance
24 November 2021 Guidance
EVHS and WCS chargepoint model approval process for manufacturers
24 November 2021 Guidance
EVHS and WCS: become an authorised installer
24 November 2021 Guidance
Workplace Charging Scheme
The Workplace Charging Scheme (WCS) is a voucher-based scheme that provides support towards the up-front costs of the purchase and installation of electric vehicle charge-points, for eligible businesses, charities and public sector organisations.

Workplaces can apply for vouchers using the Workplace Charging Scheme application form below.

Workplace Charging Scheme application form
24 July 2018 Form
Workplace Charging Scheme: grant claim form for installing charging equipment
24 July 2018 Form
Workplace Charging Scheme: guidance for applicants
24 November 2021 Guidance
Workplace Charging Scheme: guidance for installers
24 November 2021 Guidance
EVHS and WCS: become an authorised installer
24 November 2021 Guidance
EVHS and WCS chargepoint model approval process for manufacturers
24 November 2021 Guidance
Workplace Charging Scheme approved chargepoint list
11 November 2021 Guidance
Workplace Charging Scheme authorised installers
13 December 2021 Transparency data
Workplace Charging Scheme minimum technical specification
24 March 2020 Guidance
Chargepoint authorisation
For manufacturers of electric vehicle chargepoint units to apply for their chargepoints to become authorised under the Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme (EVHS) and Workplace Charging Scheme (WCS).

Apply for EVHS and WCS chargepoint model approval
24 May 2018 Form
On-street Residential Chargepoint Scheme
The On-street Residential Chargepoint Scheme (ORCS) provides grant funding for local authorities towards the cost of installing on-street residential chargepoints for plug-in electric vehicles.

On-Street Residential Chargepoint Scheme guidance for local authorities
24 November 2021 Guidance
Ultra Low Emission Taxi Infrastructure Scheme
Ultra Low Emission Taxi Infrastructure Scheme: winners
12 August 2020 Transparency data
Published 14 October 2016
Last updated 24 November 2021 + show all updates
Contents
Related content
Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme: vehicle applications
Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme: authorised installers
Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme approved chargepoint model list
Plug-in vehicle grant portal
Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme: eligible vehicles
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[Bibio]

LP.. whats the avg range of your EV? please dont quote what the book says tell us the true daily use figures. if your coming up to Scotland what mileage do you expect to get out a charge before having to stop for one.

i'm truly interested in real world figures.