The Org Scottish Referendum

France or Russia. Russia will sell to anyone.

That said I wouldn't think they'll be buying ships, they'll be struggling to keep their shipyards going as it is.

Chances are they'll be given some weapons by the rest of us when they leave. It looks bad if your newly formed state is subject to a military coup by farmers with shotguns, or invasion because you wouldn't let them have any guns.

The only words I have believed from the separatists in this farce of a debate is Jim Sillars 'day of reckoning' when enemies of the state will be crushed.

I hope its not at the weekend. A Day of Reckoning has a Monday morning feel to it.

[Wideboy]

Originally Posted by Heorot

The US is the biggest arms seller in the world, but I can't see them selling to an independent Scotland and ****ing off the UK. The current UK is the second biggest so you can forget that. So who do you buy from? Russia, France Sweden? Please enlighten us.

I wouldn't count on it. We've sold a fair bit weaponry to the US's enemies in the past, including russia in the cold war.

[Bibio]

Originally Posted by Fordward

My old man went to school with Gordon Brown, though he was a few years above him. There's 5 years between them, but Gordon Brown was clever so he got fast tracked into Kirkcaldy High 2 years early. As you can imagine this didn't make him very popular and it made him the smallest by a significant margin, so he had a pretty hard time of it.

You know what Bill Gates says, "Be nice to the geek at school, you're going to end up working for him".

i genuinely never knew that, thanks for sharing

i think i now have a little more understanding why the man is so solemn.

[TamSV]

I first came to Scottish Nationalism in the early 1990's. It seemed to me that there was a democratic deficit in the way Scotland was governed. At that particular time it was also my view that the decline of the manufacturing industry in Scotland was being dealt with in a particularly ruthless manner and was, in some cases, politically and ideologically motivated. We were selling all the countries assets and spending the money in a sop to a greedy, insatiable electorate.

Support for the SNP, it seemed to me, was a route to agitate for a different deal for Scotland. I joined and campaigned for the SNP but ultimately left because, at grass roots level, there was way too much anti-English sentiment. Not hatred for individuals you understand, but a dislike of some mythical "English" that had it in for us. As someone who had spent most of my life living in England I just didn't recognise that. I knew that, far from wishing to suppress Scotland, most English people spent no time at all thinking about us.

My interest was pro-Scotland, not anti-England so it wasn't for me. I wanted to see a fairer and more compassionate society for everyone. Maybe a choice different to the "money at all costs" that seemed to be taking hold of everyone (despite the fact that the average bloke's share of the money tends to decline while a small group scoop the majority).

I also left the party because I once turned up at a polling station in a suit and, after that, it was only a matter of time before I would be selected to stand.

I then lived and worked in Birmingham for a few years and realised that all the concerns I had living in the West of Scotland were identical to those I had living in the Black Country. The history and the people are much more similar than they are different. The complaints there were obviously not about "the English" but about a London centric media and politics that seemed to care little for the ordinary people of the Midlands. Same crime, same villain.

I began to vote Lib Dem as the only mainstream party with any interest in reversing the centralising of power and returning it closer to the people. That remains my main interest in politics.

Devolution answered most of my concerns and I hoped that process would carry on throughout the UK, but it wasn't to be. We therefore now have a situation where the democratic deficit and unfairness has transferred from Scotland to the people of England and, to a lesser extent, the rest of the UK. People are genetically disinclined to accept unfairness and it struck me that the process of devolution to all the countries in the UK would need to continue or it would eventually end in break up anyway.

Most of my arguments for independence in the 90's have largely evaporated but I still want something different that independence may, but may not, deliver.

More compassionate, less aggressive, getting on with business instead of striding across the world stage, focusing on wellbeing rather than money that is unfairly shared.

Maybe a small country would recognise its limitations and be more ready to make decisions on the issues that are currently too big to deal with in the UK. All the problems Scotland faces exist in the UK but it seems only an independent Scotland would need to deal with them. No one goes on to explain the UK solution to these problems. The oil is running out - OK, so how are we dealing with that? There's a demographic pensions timebomb - true, so what are we doing about it? The economy is hugely imbalanced - undoubtedly, so what's the solution? Housing is the root of many of our problems - yeah, but look at what my house is worth, yippee! In a knowledge economy, what will we do with the stupid people? That kind of stuff.

Maybe a small country won't want to hang onto nuclear weapons at huge expense, purely for the prestige they bring. We've dismantled all the other infrastructure to fight a nuclear war - all the command and control bunkers are tourist attractions now.

But most of all, and this applies as much now as it did in the 90's, my fervent hope and aspiration is that independence would stop all the ****ing whining.

Two things that get my goat in Scotland - one group of people who think we're rubbish. That we've got some kind of third world economy. That we're useless. That we exist solely at the largesse of others. Lots of Scots have this opinion. Lots of them.

The other group who bitch about Westminster and the English. Who blame someone else for the bad things and take the credit for the good when, in fact, we did it all together. A big boy did it. Boo hoo, here's a ****ing hanky.

Not only is all of that total ********, it does nothing for the country, nothing for the future.

If we have independence, and it's successful, both sides will gloat. If not they can all shut the **** up. But maybe some will be motivated to get off their **** and prove both sides wrong. Maybe.

Billy Connolly's got it right. Scotland will get what it deserves.

In any event, we're not going to slide into the sea. I have absolutely no concerns for my own welfare or future whichever way it goes. You may say I'm mad, and my sister who works in the mental health business would agree with you, but there it is. I may well be a borderline sociopath and dysfunctional overachiever attempting to repair my broken self-esteem, but at least my Dad's finally proud of me.

What I'm increasingly convinced of is that, whichever way the vote goes, in 5 years time we'll regret it.


Apologies for the long post.

TL;DR version: Oh look, Tam's had a breakdown.

[kaivalagi]

Originally Posted by TamSV

If we have independence, and it's successful, both sides will gloat. If not they can all shut the **** up. But maybe some will be motivated to get off their **** and prove both sides wrong. Maybe.

What a breath of fresh air after all that nationalist crap I've been seeing everywhere,

If Scotland does go independent I'd hope it might spur on some changes good for the rest of the UK, maybe after which we could re-unite

[DJ123]

There are too many big questions that have not been answered. Even if the vote was yes, it would be years & years from implementation as the infrastructure isn't in place to support everything that would have to be changed.
Personally, I hope Scotland does not get independence.

Originally Posted by Heorot

I was intrigued by Bibio's comment on buying weapons. I can't imagine what they would need apart from aircraft and perhaps some infantry weapons.

The US is the biggest arms seller in the world, but I can't see them selling to an independent Scotland and ****ing off the UK. The current UK is the second biggest so you can forget that. So who do you buy from? Russia, France Sweden? Please enlighten us.

Why would it **** off the UK? They would be allies, not enemies.

Originally Posted by Bibio

i genuinely never knew that, thanks for sharing

i think i now have a little more understanding why the man is so solemn.

As a politician he heavily criticised fast tracking kids through school, said there was more to schooling that just the academic side.

Originally Posted by TamSV

Apologies for the long post

Not at all, it was a brilliant post, thank you.