AR Marking Discussion

[fizzwheel]

Originally Posted by Baph

I don't see why the leader of the rideout, as happens on many other rideouts, can't say "OK, I need x markers, if you want to volunteer,

Thats what I did last year, Admitedly I didnt do it publically, but Strechie asked people locally if they would help out. Some of those people had already ridden the local stretches of road or some of it that we were riding on.

As ride leader I wanted some say in who was doing the marking, as per my original post in this thread.

Yet here we are, it would appear that some people appear to feel disgruntled even though I followed a process which you seem to be recommending.

I'm not reading anything at the moment, that makes me feel that the process is broken or doesnt work. I take the point about increaed feeling of participation, but my thoughts are that in this case the benefits of having pre-selected dedicated markers outweigh the disadvantages of not having the ride organised in this way.

Originally Posted by fizzwheel

Yet here we are, it would appear that some people appear to feel disgruntled even though I followed a process which you seem to be recommending.

As you said in another thread recently, one thing that's needed is a certain element of transparency. NB, I'm not saying completely transparent, as that would make it a nightmare to organise, but I feel there has to be some sort of balance.

I know I'd certainly view marking for the AR differently had I known a group of people had been asked, rather than just talking to specific individuals.

Having lead, TEC'd, marked and just plain enjoyed pretty large rides, I know all too well that marking simply requires a certain level of riding (the confidence to stop when/where necessary more than anything), and a commitment to the task (so for example, any marker should implicitly know the route). So I fully appreciate the need to "vet" people wanting to mark - but I don't see it as something that needs local knowledge at all.

Afterall, if a marker marks the junction, and someone misses that marker (as has happened on previous rides), that marker cannot go & find the missing person - otherwise more people get lost because there's no marker. Someone else would have to either take up marking, or go & find the missing person. If markers are wearing bibs, whoever started marking the junction has no real option but to stay put.

The point about breakdowns & markers helping out, I don't really feel applies. Breakdowns happen at all sorts of places, not just junctions. There will be someone on the ride with enough technical knowledge to attempt to help. Even if that means the TEC calling someone & asking them to turn around to have a look.

[fizzwheel]

Originally Posted by Baph

As you said in another thread recently, one thing that's needed is a certain element of transparency. NB, I'm not saying completely transparent, as that would make it a nightmare to organise, but I feel there has to be some sort of balance.

Well I'm obivously not being listened to then, because I explained it last year, I explained it this year, I've explained in in 3 seperate posts now with regard to this year.

I'm starting to wander whether anybody actually reads what I write...

If I was anymore transparent about this particuar issue I feel I'd turn into the invisable mod...

[timwilky]

did you say something fizz?

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by Baph

I know I'd certainly view marking for the AR differently had I known a group of people had been asked, rather than just talking to specific individuals.

I was aksed on the day of the AR ride last year. others were too who politely turned down the offer IIRC.

So know you know Baph.

Originally Posted by Baph

(so for example, any marker should implicitly know the route).

I didn't know the route when i was aksed and tbh i dont think i needed to.

Originally Posted by Baph

The point about breakdowns & markers helping out, I don't really feel applies. Breakdowns happen at all sorts of places, not just junctions. There will be someone on the ride with enough technical knowledge to attempt to help. Even if that means the TEC calling someone & asking them to turn around to have a look.

The point is that there is a group who are tasked with taking care of the rideout. If i was wearing a bib and saw 2 peeps pulled up, one clearly broken down and the other helping i'd know it was my job as the first there to pull up too. Even tho i probably have the least ability to help fix the breakdown. However i would have all the numbers for all the other markes in a fully chanrged up mobile, again somwthing i plan ahead for knowing i'm marking.
What use is a random stragner stopping to help who has no idea how to fix it or who to call to advise of the breakdwon? And how is this mecanichally mineded memeber of the ridout gonna answer his/her phone unless they have been previously asked to play such a role and be prepared to pull up if their phone rings...thus making them one of the marking team by default?

And it'd be silly for the TEC to stop as the other markers along the route will be waiting for him to come and ree them to go on and mark some more.

Oh and i just felt a cold shiver, like a breeze or ghost just went past me going "I am Fiiiiiiizzz, can you not see or hear me?"

last year I offered my services along time before the AR and was told I was not needed.
I live local and could easily have gone over the route.
I now find out that people were asked on the day.
I AM SO ANGRY

NOT.
i have read what Fizz put and respect his decision, regarding people he knew he could rely on

Originally Posted by Spiderman

I was aksed on the day of the AR ride last year. others were too who politely turned down the offer IIRC.

So know you know Baph.

That's the point about transparency. Knowing so after the event isn't exactly transparent organisation IMO.

From gid's reply, he offered last year, and was turned down. There could be many reasons for this, but you were obviously asked Spidey as someone felt there weren't enough markers, so someone had to make up numbers.

Originally Posted by Spiderman

I didn't know the route when i was aksed and tbh i dont think i needed to.

I kind of agree, just I feel that whatever rides I've been marking on (I hasten to add I've only attended one AR & didn't mark on that), I've made the effort to be aware of the route. Occasionally I've forgotten where I am due to singing to myself in the helmet though.

Originally Posted by Spiderman

The point is that there is a group who are tasked with taking care of the rideout. If i was wearing a bib and saw 2 peeps pulled up, one clearly broken down and the other helping i'd know it was my job as the first there to pull up too.

Anyone that's been on virtually any NW rideout with me will know I always stop to help out, be that a breakdown, an accident or a simple knock of confidence. That's if I'm wearing a "bib" (not that NW rideouts have them) or not, though to be fair I am usually in high-vis on a rideout.

We've had talks about not stopping if someone is pulled by Police, yet I still do. If they want a look at my bike, well, that's my fault for stopping. But I wouldn't leave someone stranded in the middle of nowhere not knowing the first thing about where they were going.

Originally Posted by Spiderman

...thus making them one of the marking team by default?

I don't get that at all. I know when my phone rings whilst I'm riding the bike (granted, not everyone will), and my phone is always set to only ring if it's key people calling me (not everyone has a phone that can do this) when I'm on a rideout. So by default I'd pull over & answer/call back. Again, that's if I'm marking or otherwise.

Other people will have setups like Autocom where they can talk & ride at the same time.

Being prepared to take/make a call whilst mobile on the bike isn't one of the criteria for being a marker as far as I'm concerned.

I wouldn't be the best person to talk to about say, a GSXR broken down at the side of the road, but I'd have a good crack at it, and carry most tools when I'm even out & about by myself. I've repaired numerous bikes at the roadside purely by being in the right place at the right time.

Originally Posted by Spiderman

And it'd be silly for the TEC to stop as the other markers along the route will be waiting for him to come and ree them to go on and mark some more.

The whole point, at least to me, of having markers & TEC, is that if the TEC doesn't come, the marker waits indefinitely. If the ride has got so far, and the leaders are aware that markers aren't keeping up, the leader pulls over & gets the ride to re-group. At that point, anyone could be sent back to enquire about the hold-up.

What would happen if the TEC, for example, was taken out in a SMIDSY (not that I'd want that for a second but it illustrates the point of the TEC not arriving at a marked junction)?

Well, I'm quite happy to volunteer for the post. I hope my riding hasn't offended or scared anyone in the past*, I've marked the last 2 ARs and have great fun thinking up new and stupid poses to adopt while marking (Including AR07 when I was seen "marking" a junction with scent...)

This does not mean that I feel I have the right or the duty to assume I'm a better/faster/prettier/more special rider than anyone else, or that I should use my "privilege" to ride like a twonk. It just means that I understand the system and am reasonably good at communicating it to others (IE I have a good shouty voice!)

I think it was last year that we had me and a marker from another rideout marking the same junction, non-bibbed markers would have been confusing for them and us when they took a different route from us at the next junction! If it ain't broke...


*If I have, please PM me so I know as I'd hate for there to be something about the weekend that annoys anyone, 'specially if I cause it!

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by Baph

... a certain element of transparency. NB, I'm not saying completely transparent, as that would make it a nightmare to organise, but I feel there has to be some sort of balance.

Originally Posted by Baph

That's the point about transparency. Knowing so after the event isn't exactly transparent organisation IMO.

You're kinda contradicting yourself now. Which is it, a certain amount of transparency or every single person on the AR knowing about desicion making procesess? Or, and i say this is the nicest possible way, if you had been consulted it would have been alright then?

Originally Posted by Baph

From gid's reply, he offered last year, and was turned down.

yes and he's not at all bother about it, so why bring it up? Like i said i want this discussion to be about a better system if anyone can come up with one, not just general chit chat abut the whole marking process and how it works or who was or wasn't chosen.

Originally Posted by Baph

you were obviously asked Spidey as someone felt there weren't enough markers, so someone had to make up numbers.

yes, i was walking along minding my own business and someone came up to me and said they wanted me to be a maker and would i mind. Why they were short never crossed my mind. I was asked to help the organisers and i happily agreed to. There really was nothing more to it than that, no funny sercet handshakes or any of that.

Originally Posted by Baph

I know when my phone rings whilst I'm riding the bike (granted, not everyone will), and my phone is always set to only ring if it's key people calling me (not everyone has a phone that can do this) when I'm on a rideout. So by default I'd pull over & answer/call back. Again, that's if I'm marking or otherwise.

Ok thats you and again this is a discussion about smaller regional rides, not the AR which is far bigger and welcomes riders of all capapbilities.
I dont answer my phone when i ride my bike, ever. Not on a ride out, not when i'm late for something, never. The point you're not getting is that we would have to organise who this magically talented person is in advance and ask them if they would provide such a service and miss out on possibly a large part the rideout if needs be. If they agree then we may as well give them a bib so if/when another markes sees that person pulled up next to a broken down bike they can carry on knowing its taken care of. If they didn't have a bib then everyone on the marker team would have to slow up and try and remember if thats the person or not. Thus slowing down all the markers for no reason, bibs just make it clear its one of the team without the need to think about it.

Originally Posted by Baph

Other people will have setups like Autocom where they can talk & ride at the same time.

Other people in other situations and other times. The whole of the marking team dont have or need or rely on communicating, they know the drill.

Originally Posted by Baph

Being prepared to take/make a call whilst mobile on the bike isn't one of the criteria for being a marker as far as I'm concerned.

No one said it was

Originally Posted by Baph

The whole point, at least to me, of having markers & TEC, is that if the TEC doesn't come, the marker waits indefinitely. If the ride has got so far, and the leaders are aware that markers aren't keeping up, the leader pulls over & gets the ride to re-group. At that point, anyone could be sent back to enquire about the hold-up.

thus slowing up the whole group, making the entire group find somewhere suitably large and safe to pull up and wait. Why? If one or 2 can deal with problem at roadside and the rest of the pack can just carry on and not let it spoil their day?

Originally Posted by Baph

What would happen if the TEC, for example, was taken out in a SMIDSY (not that I'd want that for a second but it illustrates the point of the TEC not arriving at a marked junction)?

as good a question as what would happen if a drunk driver drove head first into the lead pack of bikes.
We can allow for a certain number of contingencies, not every possibility.

Again Baph, i feel you're generalising about the whole idea of marking, not actually suggesting a new idea that we could discuss and disect looking for possible falws to the idea.

I aksed for this thread to please be about any ideas that anyone may have based on trying to give more people the feeling of participating, so if you have an idea i'd love to hear it, if not please lets not have huge long posts where we are just quoting each other and debating ideas about marking as a whole.

Originally Posted by Spiderman

I aksed for this thread to please be about any ideas that anyone may have based on trying to give more people the feeling of participating, so if you have an idea i'd love to hear it, if not please lets not have huge long posts where we are just quoting each other and debating ideas about marking as a whole.

I suggest you re-read my first post in this thread then.

I seriously fail to see why that discussion could not of been held out in the open, prior to the AR happening. That is the idea I'm putting forward for the next one, but you seem to be completely ignoring.