Renewable Energy Discussion thread

[Ruffy]

Originally Posted by punyXpress

Solution: solar power.
Fill the fields with solar panels.

The problem with solar is that the sun isn't there at night! This needs to be paired with an energy storage solution.

Believe it or not, 'lots of parked up electric cars' has been mooted as a possibility for that. It's effectively a large scale battery farm. How do you fancy agreeing that your electric car may only be part charged in the morning because it's been helping to keep the lights on overnight at the local hospital/factory/pub/nightspot etc.?

[SV650rules]

Originally Posted by Ruffy

The problem with solar is that the sun isn't there at night! This needs to be paired with an energy storage solution.

Believe it or not, 'lots of parked up electric cars' has been mooted as a possibility for that. It's effectively a large scale battery farm. How do you fancy agreeing that your electric car may only be part charged in the morning because it's been helping to keep the lights on overnight at the local hospital/factory/pub/nightspot etc.?

There has been very little solar power in the last month or two, it has been down below 1% for long periods. Who would have thought using solar power in UK ( with barely 7 hours of daylight ) when you need power the most was a good idea, especially with banning of gas boilers that may have to be replaced with 20 to 30Kw electric boilers ( that is 80 to 120 amps, or more than the total power most homes now get ) add in another 10KW to charge an electric car and each house will need an enormous amount of power and streets will need new cables. I suppose that very expensive ground source heat pumps will be suggested next... Electric cars expensive ( even when subsidised by taxpayers who can never afford one) are way out of the reach of 90% of the population, even if you can afford one you need a place to charge it.

Using electric vehicle batteries as grid backup is a typical fudge you expect from governments who don't think things through. It is a bit like agreeing for them to siphon fuel out of your tank and hope it gets put back in time for when you need to use the car...... There is also the problem that it would use up the charge and discharge cycle life on the battery, shortening its life.

Fossil fuels freed humans from a subsistence existence at the mercy of nature, and enables our comfortable modern life, and stopped the chopping down of all our forests for fuel - now we have put ourselves back at the mercy of nature... I suppose that can be called progress....LOL

According to a recent NASA report, the higher CO2 levels are actually greening the planet ( clue, plants need CO2 to grow ) and could result in deserts becoming fertile again, as well as getting increased yield from present farmland. As for climate change, sea levels have been both higher and lower in the past on the planet, so at present we are somewhere in the middle, hardly cause for the present climate hysteria we are seeing.


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/90...-National-Grid

[Seeker]

Electric boilers...how quaint. A typical house in the UK requires 12kW/h of heat per year. A heat pump efficiency is measured by CoP (Coefficient of Performance) so a pump with a CoP of 3 would produce 3kW of heat for every 1kW of electricity used and a typical house would therefore require 4kW per year. This link:
https://www.viessmann.co.uk/heating-...of-electricity
shows that it works out cheaper than gas at current(!) prices.

Re-purposing old electric car batteries is not a government fudge:
https://energypost.eu/grid-scale-sol...-ev-batteries/

Yes we needed fossil fuels to produce our civilisation, we needed to be carnivores to develop intelligence. We now use that intelligence to realise that we cannot continue to use fossil fuels if the ecosphere is to survive. Are any of the suggestions a complete solution? No. Does that mean we should not try? No. Nuclear fusion is still 50 years away (old physicist joke), Thorium fission reactors are a brilliant idea but we've tried on/off over the years (with limited resources) but get thwarted by corrosion - maybe metallurgy has advanced that they'll now work. Tidal energy is another possibility that has had little money thrown at it - a loch in Northern Ireland was hosting a trial. They tried it in the Humber which has a fairly fast tide but were defeated by turbidity.

http://www.tidalenergy.eu/tidal_energy_uk.html

Incidentally to demonstrate the "intelligence of mankind", when nuclear power was in its infancy 2 different paths were available for research - Uranium and Thorium both held promise but it was then discovered that a Uranium reactor could also make fuel for bombs... and here we are.

[SV650rules]

Originally Posted by Seeker

Electric boilers...how quaint. A typical house in the UK requires 12kW/h of heat per year. A heat pump efficiency is measured by CoP (Coefficient of Performance) so a pump with a CoP of 3 would produce 3kW of heat for every 1kW of electricity used and a typical house would therefore require 4kW per year. This link:
https://www.viessmann.co.uk/heating-...of-electricity
shows that it works out cheaper than gas at current(!) prices.

Re-purposing old electric car batteries is not a government fudge:
https://energypost.eu/grid-scale-sol...-ev-batteries/
.

Heat pumps are expensive to install, whether air or ground source, the original cost has to be factored back into the running cost. The real problems is that more and more demand being placed on grid, and government would rather spend money on projects like HS2 than ensuring our future power supply by building dependable nuclear power stations. The heat pump would potentially need 35,000 KWh per year ( 4 KW for 24 x365 days ).


The government was not talking about re-purposing BEV batteries, they were talking about cars being charged on peoples driveways having power 'siphoned off' ( fed back into the grid ) during peak times... using old car batteries is a different matter, but a large battery farm would be a potential bomb, due to the fact that lithium is very flammable and toxic ( look at the full gear, including breathing masks that firemen have to wear when dealing with a BEV crash and fire ).

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by SV650rules

but a large battery farm would be a potential bomb

hmm...

https://www.energy-storage.news/news...rom-government

Originally Posted by SV650rules

The heat pump would potentially need 35,000 KWh per year ( 4 KW for 24 x365 days )

The article actually said: "Therefore, in order to achieve this, a heat pump with a CoP of three would use 4,000 kW of electricity annually."

From the line above that: "The average home requires around 12,000 kilowatt hours (KwH) of heat per year."

They dropped the /h from kW/h. (as shown by their cost evaluation).

Lithium batteries are susceptible to impact damage because it allows for internal short circuiting - the same problem that was caused by dendrites in early (and cheaper) batteries. Fixes for these problems are already in the pipeline: https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/8/2...ange-charge-vw

None of these are perfect solutions but even I, speaking as a pessimist, think we should at least try. Fossil fuels are a definite no/no, nuclear fission generates waste that we still don't know how to safely store long term, thorium fission would eliminate some existing nuclear waste but we've no experience of building a full scale Thorium reactor (but we are trying), renewables are capable of at least reducing our reliance on fossil fuels. Hydrogen is expensive to make although promising catalysts are emerging. Hydrogen burns with an invisible flame so handling it is extremely difficult - maybe use on trains/ships? Cars would need a fuel cell and Toyota (who don't think electric cars are the answer) plus Mercedes are pursuing this technology.

We set a first last week when the first death attributed (or partially attributed) to air pollution was recorded: https://earther.gizmodo.com/the-worl...oul-1845897149

Doing nothing is not an option.

[Ruffy]

Originally Posted by SV650rules

Fossil fuels freed humans from a subsistence existence at the mercy of nature, and enables our comfortable modern life, and stopped the chopping down of all our forests for fuel - now we have put ourselves back at the mercy of nature... I suppose that can be called progress....LOL

When did human species become separate from nature, or superior to it? Surely we need to find a harmonious solution for all and learn to live with some of the uncertainties of the world? I think we're still "at the mercy of nature" when it comes to much of our food.

There are those who think that wiping out human species would be the best solution for 'saving the planet', if that's the broader objective. Or is the aim to save the humans but not care about what happens to the planet. We're straying off topic - see you on Mars in the next life!

Originally Posted by SV650rules

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/90...-National-Grid

Simply sensationalist reporting. This sort of payment has been routine for conventional generation since the inception of the grid. For context, Balancing Services expenditure is c.£1.1bn per year, so £108m is a drop in the ocean. Shame the 'journalist' didn't include that,really. As I said before, generators are only paid not to generate in certain circumstances, not all the time they are off.

The reason many scottish windfarms are susceptible is that, on days of 'good' wind levels, there is insufficient grid capacity to transfer the power to where the demand is (typically SE/London). A new north-south circuit is required to prevent this, but no-one wants that either, they just want the magic of lights on. Scotland has many windfarms because they have the space. Perhaps Battersea should have been re-commissioned as a power station instead of building expensive flats and shops?
I sugest you read some of the industry publications rather than the tabloid press. Perhaps start with the Electricity Ten Year Statement https://www.nationalgrideso.com/research-publications/etys-2020

Originally Posted by SV650rules

There has been very little solar power in the last month or two, it has been down below 1% for long periods. Who would have thought using solar power in UK ( with barely 7 hours of daylight ) when you need power the most was a good idea, especially with banning of gas boilers that may have to be replaced with 20 to 30Kw electric boilers ( that is 80 to 120 amps, or more than the total power most homes now get ) add in another 10KW to charge an electric car and each house will need an enormous amount of power and streets will need new cables. I suppose that very expensive ground source heat pumps will be suggested next... Electric cars expensive ( even when subsidised by taxpayers who can never afford one) are way out of the reach of 90% of the population, even if you can afford one you need a place to charge it.

Originally Posted by Seeker

Electric boilers...how quaint. A typical house in the UK requires 12kW/h of heat per year. A heat pump efficiency is measured by CoP (Coefficient of Performance) so a pump with a CoP of 3 would produce 3kW of heat for every 1kW of electricity used and a typical house would therefore require 4kW per year. This link:
https://www.viessmann.co.uk/heating-...of-electricity
shows that it works out cheaper than gas at current(!) prices.

Originally Posted by SV650rules

Heat pumps are expensive to install, whether air or ground source, the original cost has to be factored back into the running cost. The real problems is that more and more demand being placed on grid, and government would rather spend money on projects like HS2 than ensuring our future power supply by building dependable nuclear power stations. The heat pump would potentially need 35,000 KWh per year ( 4 KW for 24 x365 days ).

Do we need to worry about efficiency and new tech? A rooftop solar panel can provide hot water to fulfill many domestic heating and hot water needs that would result in big reduction in gas and electric use from the grid. Panel doesn't even need to be PV, non-electric solutions are perfectly feasible. A hot water storage tank is still commonplace. But we maybe straying off topic again.

Originally Posted by SV650rules

Using electric vehicle batteries as grid backup is a typical fudge you expect from governments who don't think things through. It is a bit like agreeing for them to siphon fuel out of your tank and hope it gets put back in time for when you need to use the car...... There is also the problem that it would use up the charge and discharge cycle life on the battery, shortening its life.

Originally Posted by Seeker

Re-purposing old electric car batteries is not a government fudge:
https://energypost.eu/grid-scale-sol...-ev-batteries/

Originally Posted by SV650rules

The government was not talking about re-purposing BEV batteries, they were talking about cars being charged on peoples driveways having power 'siphoned off' ( fed back into the grid ) during peak times... using old car batteries is a different matter, but a large battery farm would be a potential bomb, due to the fact that lithium is very flammable and toxic ( look at the full gear, including breathing masks that firemen have to wear when dealing with a BEV crash and fire ).

Either way, using battery stores, either permanent or temporary from EVs is worth exploring IMHO. For EVs, do you really need a full charge at the start of every journey? (I'm not suggesting it's a perfect answer - yes, there are downsides - but it could be part of a sensible engineering solution. It's just one aspect within the concept of demand side balancing. )

Originally Posted by Seeker

Doing nothing is not an option.

Agreed (by me a least). Electric vehicles are part of the solution that are worth pursuing for some applications, but I certainly dont think they're a utopian fix-all.

[SV650rules]

Looking at solar power contribution to grid in last few months, you would not be wise to rely on it for your hot water, so once again you need a backup source of energy. Like most renewables when you need it most it is not there. Air source heat pumps efficiency drops with ambient temperature, and at 5 deg C ambient the output is about 1.5x the input..and at a low temperature too low to heat water - . so once again when you need heat the most you get the least, and with gas per kilowatt about 20% of electrical power cost at lower temps air source becomes a lot more expensive per KW output.

Renewables should be looked at as fuel savers in the good times, but for the bad times out need a plan B - which is a reliable system of generation for your base load.

[DJ123]

With renewables you need to be able to store the energy when i isn't being used. that's the big draw back with energy you don't have an on/.off switch for when the demand is not there.

[SV650rules]

I can see smart meters combined with smart distribution boxes to enable 'load shedding' within a house or building, for example turn off the water immersion heater at peak times. Also smart meters ideal for tariff changes throughout the day ( but no longer cheap at night because solar not working ). You can bet that the pricing will always be above base tariff once the companies get a lot of smart meters out there ( no need to scare the consumer off by doing it too early, although I feel a lot of consumers already suspect what plans are afoot and are wary of smart meters, also like most things smart meter rollout was badly thought through as with early models you were stuck with your supplier if you wanted your smart meter to not go dumb on you ). The big lie with smart meters is that they save you money, when they only indicate what you are using, quite a few people already know that a kettle uses 3kw though, unless it is an EU one, and that you need the same energy to boil a certain amount of water with a 3kw or 1.5kw kettle, it just takes longer with lower wattage ), with the lower wattage EU kettles they were trying to limit peak of demand but spread it out to relieve pressure on grid.

[SV650rules]

Renewables been pretty much absent from grid again since 27 December last year. All the other stuff flat out, including overseas cables bringing nuclear from France...

see http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

there is real time and historical data available.