what to buy- leather? material?

Originally Posted by Keith1983

am I not right in saying that one magazine, who I can't remember found that a cheese and pickle sandwich had a better impact rating than some of frank thomas's old style knee armour?

You're correct, but I wouldn't even look at FT gear. one of my best mates is one of their old sales reps and he told me he spent half his working days with them dealing with returns, failures and irate customers.

[northwind]

Originally Posted by Lozzo

just remember it's bloody useless in a high speed slide up the tarmac... You know that textile will fail in a crash

I know this is your field, but in my own direct experience you're overstating things... I've slid from 40mph myself without so much as a scratch or a burn in textile trousers. OK, so that's not very high speed but even from higher speeds that basic level of protection is still there.

A few years back I arrived at a recent crash where a guy had lost control of his Vmax after a puncture and slid along the motorway from about 80mph in some textile jacket and a pair of no-name cordura biking combats, and though he had a few scrapes and some minor burns (mostly on one arm, which had split at a seam) he was in pretty good shape, up and walking. I've been on the scene of a couple of other sliding accidents where the rider's been in textiles and they've done OK (and a couple where they've been in regular clothes, and they've not done so well) I've also seen leathers burst like a paper bag on impact and offer no protection at all. (cough, Dainese, cough)

Obviously it's not as good as leather, mind. In that same 40mph crash my Furygan leather jacket hardly even noticed that it'd been on the ground, it didn't even wear through the dye The Teknics gear was in tatters, it hadn't holed except at one pocket but it was straight in the bin. I'd always sooner be in leathers when I crash obviously. I'd sooner not crash at all!

This idea that a biking textile jacket- made of a reasonably abrasion resistance material, and with considerable thicknesses of material and properly constructed seams- is no more protective than a fashion jacket, to me it's demonstrably false tbh... I'm not sure it's a good message to be giving either, since people might read it and think "Ah well, I'll just ride in my jeans" If you see someone crash in ordinary jeans, even at low speeds they tend to rip in large chunks, seams split, they can just fall apart. Hell, fall over in the street in a typical jacket and trousers and you can lose skin. Think how many times you put your knees out as a kid!

[northwind]

Originally Posted by Keith1983

am I not right in saying that one magazine, who I can't remember found that a cheese and pickle sandwich had a better impact rating than some of frank thomas's old style knee armour?

No- those trousers (Strike) were never advertised as being armoured. FT pointed out as much in the article, but the magazine muddied the waters for the purposes of their article. "These unarmoured trousers might as well be unarmoured!" There was a good article there to be written, about armour upgrades, checking your gear, filling available pockets, choosing your gear better...

Originally Posted by northwind

I know this is your field, but in my own direct experience you're overstating things... I've slid from 40mph myself without so much as a scratch or a burn in textile trousers. OK, so that's not very high speed but even from higher speeds that basic level of protection is still there.

Textile doesn't offer much protection, proven fact. Even the very best non-CE textile material fails the CE abrasion tests quite spectacularly.

Originally Posted by northwind

This idea that a biking textile jacket- made of a reasonably abrasion resistance material, and with considerable thicknesses of material and properly constructed seams- is no more protective than a fashion jacket, to me it's demonstrably false tbh.

There's no such thing as "reasonably abrasion resistance material" unless you're looking at specialist textiles such as the ones made by Halvarssons. The thicker the better obviously, but they all go through in less than 3 seconds sliding in the tests, some last less than half a second. properly constructed seams help, but they are only as good as the textile each side of the stitching. I got knocked off my Bandit at about 40 while filtering on the M25 about 2 years ago, I hit the deck and rolled wearing a heavyweight DuPont Cordura jacket. When I checked the jacket over later it was holed in three places and both knees were wrecked on the trousers. Even the quality stuff will wear through quickly.

Originally Posted by northwind

If you see someone crash in ordinary jeans, even at low speeds they tend to rip in large chunks, seams split, they just fall apart. Hell, fall over in the street in a typical jacket and trousers and you can lose skin. Just because something's not CE doesn't mean it offers no protection at all.

As proven, a cheese sandwich offers a degree of impact protection, but no-one in their right mind would rely on it to do the job. As far as trading standards and the EU are concerned, if it's not CE approved it's a 'bike style' fashion item and you should look on it as offering no crash protection at all. If it does save your skin then well done, you scored a bargain. Lots of off the peg and reasonably priced leathers could quite easily be made to CE standards if a few minor and low cost changes were made - the manufacturers know this but choose to put high volume/low profit sales before safety and slightly higher pricing. CE approved textiles...forget it. It took years for Halvarssons to develop their safety suit and despite the price they've got that niche in the market well and truly covered, but it cost them a mint to corner it.

Originally Posted by northwind

No- those trousers (Strike) were never advertised as being armoured. FT pointed out as much in the article, but the magazine muddied the waters for the purposes of their article. "These unarmoured trousers might as well be unarmoured!" There was a good article there to be written, about armour upgrades, checking your gear, filling available pockets, choosing your gear better...

The exact same armour was being used in other FT clothing and they were sold as being CE armoured. Their reps were on a mission directly after that magazine went to press to remove and replace all the offending armour from garments hanging in shops. I was working for a rival firm at the time and we'd all deliberately follow the FT reps round nicking all the business they lost because of that article. After a few months you learn the rival rep's call cycles and have them noted in your diary - usually you would try to get in before them so the customer spends with you, but this was different. The FT rep may be one of my best mates outside of work, but business is business. He left and joined our firm to cover my neighbouring area.

[northwind]

Yeah, forget CE for textiles, but that doesn't mean you have to accept that textiles are completely unprotective. I hear what you're saying but like I say, I've got real world experience to the contrary, not just a once-off, and I won't be the only one I'm sure. Are the tests you mentioned still the old abrasive belt ones? I know that the manufacturers have their own reasons for objecting to abrasive belt tests (they don't like failing tests and it's easier to change the rules than change the problem) but they've been shown not to compare well with a tarmac drag test...

When I say reasonably protective, I've got in mind typical cordura or similiar, 500 denier cordura has far better tear/burst resistance than cotton or denim, but also construction- it's usually present in heavier thicknesses than you'd find in streetwear. Take my Belstaff winter jacket frinstance, at the shoulders the fabric is over 6mm thick, even if it were no more wear resistant than the material used in a typical waterproof textile jacket it'd still last several times as long just for that reason...

[northwind]

Originally Posted by Lozzo

The exact same armour was being used in other FT clothing and they were sold as being CE armoured.

I have a pair of those bought a few months before the article, absolutely no CE markings on 'em. The padding is unmarked too. (and no wonder, it feels like a prawn cracker) Maybe shops were selling it as armoured but that's a totally different question, the gear itself definately wasn't marked as such. Or at least, mine wasn't I'm pretty sure if the magazine had been able to make that stick they'd have thrown it into the mix, considering what a hatchet job the article was. IMO

They're s*** leathers, mind. Considering they cost nearly as much as the Teknics sets you'd have to be a bit mental to buy them now. I couldn't find anything else that fit me... Not even well finished never mind well made, they look painted rather than dyed. They did crash reasonably well (slid on my bum in them at Knockhill all the way down the back straight from about 80mph to a standstill) but I think that was partly luck, there's loads of revealed stitching, single rows, seams in exposed places... Nasty. Not exactly sticking up for FT here you understand, even if they came with real armour they'd still be rubbish. And the pockets are funny sized too so it's hard to add your own armour, the hip pockets are about 2 inches square, what use is that?)

[Lissa]

Originally Posted by northwind

And the pockets are funny sized too so it's hard to add your own armour, the hip pockets are about 2 inches square, what use is that?

Big enough for a small cheese and pickle sandwich?

[northwind]

Originally Posted by northwind

I have a pair of those bought a few months before the article,

Ah, but I'd misunderstood, you were referring to the same stuff in other FT gear. In which case, that's reeeeally bad.

Originally Posted by Lozzo

Both are as friendly as the other, but Paws works at Northampton and is reputed to really know her stuff.

Goodness me my lil ears have been buring on this forum last few days!!!
Right oh, hein gericke kit-id deffo recommend, and not just because i work for them.I have textiles for winter, leathers for summer-have crashed twice in textiles and theyve done their job!
As for lack of cash, hein gericke A) have a sale on NOW, ends soon though and B) can offer 0% interest free finance over 10mths.