ABS whats the script

Originally Posted by SoulKiss

I was commenting on the quote about them being unhappy with the roll-on.

If there was no roll on they would not have been unhappy.

If there was no roll on they would not have activated the ABS

OK, you quoted the wrong person then, I didn't mention anything about the roll-on.

[SoulKiss]

Originally Posted by -Ralph-

OK, you quoted the wrong person then, I didn't mention anything about the roll-on.

No, but grimey121uk did in his post that I quoted that you replied to

Thought it was going to be something like that - lol

Originally Posted by SoulKiss

The run-on effect they mentioned (and I quoted) is a by-product of the ABS - you only run on if the ABS has dis-engaged the brakes.

If as soon the ABS indicates its kicked in (you WILL feel this, just like you would feel a wheel-lock) you release and re-apply, just like non-ABS you WILL stop quicker than pull on the brake and let ABS keep you upright while it tries to stop you.

I seriously doubt it to be the case. If ABS kicks in, it will disengage way faster than you could possibly do it as a human. Each pulse you feel from the abs is an on/off sequence. It is able to release+reapply about 20times/sec (for the best systems).

As a human, your muscles simply cannot act that fast. We can barely pulse 2times/sec. So, if you do feel the abs kicking in, leave it there. One of the great misunderstandings related to ABS is that you should let go & reapply for shorter braking distances.

The other reason letting go & reapplying does not get you better braking distances is due to the way ABS works. It does not just try to keep the wheel from locking. It actually allows a bit of locking. To be more precise, it tries to keep the slip rate around 15%, which is where you get optimum braking on non-deformable surfaces. Because it cannot measure exact slip rates directly and requires the wheel to spin a little to measure an approximate slip rate, it needs to release to wheel to the point where slip rate goes for sure under 15%. Each pulse is an attempt to check that the slip rate is as close to 15% as possible.

The only reason experts defeat ABS is because of this characteristic where the SR varies with each pulse between 5-25% for ABS. The expert is able to keep it between lets say 10-20%, but he does so by applying constant pressure. If he were to increase the SR too much (e.g. bring the wheel towards total lock up - SR 100%) he would also have to pulse and would thus loose to the ABS. If abs were able to do more pulses per second, it might be able to keep the SR between, say, 13-17% (for a couple of hundred pulses per second).

If you feel the ABS kicking in, if you release the brakes & reapply you will VERY likely be increasing braking distance simply because of how slow we, as humans, are able to reapply pressure which in turn, keeps the braking force low for too long.

Originally Posted by andreis

I seriously doubt it to be the case. If ABS kicks in, it will disengage way faster than you could possibly do it as a human. Each pulse you feel from the abs is an on/off sequence. It is able to release+reapply about 20times/sec (for the best systems).

As a human, your muscles simply cannot act that fast. We can barely pulse 2times/sec. So, if you do feel the abs kicking in, leave it there. One of the great misunderstandings related to ABS is that you should let go & reapply for shorter braking distances.

The other reason letting go & reapplying does not get you better braking distances is due to the way ABS works. It does not just try to keep the wheel from locking. It actually allows a bit of locking. To be more precise, it tries to keep the slip rate around 15%, which is where you get optimum braking on non-deformable surfaces. Because it cannot measure exact slip rates directly and requires the wheel to spin a little to measure an approximate slip rate, it needs to release to wheel to the point where slip rate goes for sure under 15%. Each pulse is an attempt to check that the slip rate is as close to 15% as possible.

The only reason experts defeat ABS is because of this characteristic where the SR varies with each pulse between 5-25% for ABS. The expert is able to keep it between lets say 10-20%, but he does so by applying constant pressure. If he were to increase the SR too much (e.g. bring the wheel towards total lock up - SR 100%) he would also have to pulse and would thus loose to the ABS. If abs were able to do more pulses per second, it might be able to keep the SR between, say, 13-17% (for a couple of hundred pulses per second).

If you feel the ABS kicking in, if you release the brakes & reapply you will VERY likely be increasing braking distance simply because of how slow we, as humans, are able to reapply pressure which in turn, keeps the braking force low for too long.

Nice post.

[SoulKiss]

Originally Posted by andreis

I seriously doubt it to be the case. If ABS kicks in, it will disengage way faster than you could possibly do it as a human. Each pulse you feel from the abs is an on/off sequence. It is able to release+reapply about 20times/sec (for the best systems).

As a human, your muscles simply cannot act that fast. We can barely pulse 2times/sec. So, if you do feel the abs kicking in, leave it there. One of the great misunderstandings related to ABS is that you should let go & reapply for shorter braking distances.

The other reason letting go & reapplying does not get you better braking distances is due to the way ABS works. It does not just try to keep the wheel from locking. It actually allows a bit of locking. To be more precise, it tries to keep the slip rate around 15%, which is where you get optimum braking on non-deformable surfaces. Because it cannot measure exact slip rates directly and requires the wheel to spin a little to measure an approximate slip rate, it needs to release to wheel to the point where slip rate goes for sure under 15%. Each pulse is an attempt to check that the slip rate is as close to 15% as possible.

The only reason experts defeat ABS is because of this characteristic where the SR varies with each pulse between 5-25% for ABS. The expert is able to keep it between lets say 10-20%, but he does so by applying constant pressure. If he were to increase the SR too much (e.g. bring the wheel towards total lock up - SR 100%) he would also have to pulse and would thus loose to the ABS. If abs were able to do more pulses per second, it might be able to keep the SR between, say, 13-17% (for a couple of hundred pulses per second).

If you feel the ABS kicking in, if you release the brakes & reapply you will VERY likely be increasing braking distance simply because of how slow we, as humans, are able to reapply pressure which in turn, keeps the braking force low for too long.

That may be the case for breaking distance, but those slips are loss of control, no matter how small.

Hands up everyone who has had an ABS bike for over 2 and a half years and is not just talking theory?

*HAND GOES UP*

[Luckypants]

I too have had ABS on my bike for over 2.5 years and have experience.

There's at least three situations where ABS may kick in

1) An emergency stop where you panic and grab on. In this case the best plan (IMHO) is to hang on and let ABS sort it out and keep you upright.
2) You hit poor surface while braking and ABS activates, keeps you upright, saves your bacon and cuts out as traction improves when off the poor surface. Best policy IMHO is to hang on and let ABS sort it out.
3) You are braking as hard as you can in a planned manner but over cook it, lose traction and ABS cuts in. (eg Track day) In this case, (again IMHO) ease off and re-apply to get back to maximum braking.

I have experienced 1 & 2 but not 3, despite lifting the rear wheel off the floor once or twice under braking.

[TSM]

Originally Posted by SoulKiss

That may be the case for breaking distance, but those slips are loss of control, no matter how small.

Hands up everyone who has had an ABS bike for over 2 and a half years and is not just talking theory?

*HAND GOES UP*

dont start playing that david, it will come to bite you back, having it does not make you better

[SoulKiss]

Originally Posted by TSM

dont start playing that david, it will come to bite you back, having it does not make you better

I'm not saying that it makes me better - hell going back to the SV shows up that I have been relying on it in a few occasions.

I take on board what everyone thinks, but I know from first hand what happens if you think the ABS will dig you out of holes.

I never just haul on the brakes and ride out the ABS to get me to stop, in fact reading the post that I was last responding to has prompted me to give it a go next time I am out on the Zed, just to see what its like to grab a handful and let the bike do the thinking for me.

If the ABS kicks in I see it as a failure in my riding - whether thats because I braked harshly due to rider error, or had to grab a handful because I forgot that EVERY London bus has a pedestrian hiding behind it to jump out on me if I forget they are there

[andrewsmith]

Originally Posted by Stig

ABS will ALWAYS brake better than me. I'd have it.

Thats the long and short of the argument.

I don't like ABS, learned on a CBF 500 with C-ABS, I found it very unnerving in the wet as it 'pulsed' a lot when I needed to pull from 50mph for lights (enough room to do it).

We'll have no option in a few years the EU may be making it madatory (and getting rid of the 100bhp rule some states have)

[Dave20046]

I was really keen to try out bike abs, admittedly I've never come off the sv though losing traction under braking (*touch wood*!) but it is a bit of a concern. Had a go on a beemer with it recently and wasn't dissapointed, it was a really greasy wet day with loads of diesel splodges every where - I was grabbing fist fuls of front brake (and sometimes kicking the back) at points through out the day and on approach to lights and it didn't slip once. Personally think the pros outway the cons.

Electronic suspension and traction control on the otherhand I'm not too keen on (the latter didn't work)