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Biker Biggles · 13-02-06, 08:54 PM

For what it's worth I think it is unfair and immoral to send groups of armed young men into situations like we see here and expect them NOT to react in this way.Giving a good hiding to those who have just been involved in trying to kill you is not unreasonable IMHO,and I'm amazed there's not more of it.
I find it hypocritical when the great and the good get on their high horses about it.When was the last time they had rocks and petrol bombs thrown at them?
I'm not ex military but I have been in vaguely comparable situations in my youth and I showed rather less restraint at times than those squaddies.So I won't condemn them from the comfort of my living room.

13-02-06, 09:02 PM

Ignoring the political back drop of Iraq I feel we must be aware that the alien environment of dealing with street militia and crazed hoardes of civilians is not something that your average soldier receives in depth training on.

The beating that was metered out which was shown so graphically in the video cannot be justified,however some empathy with the average young soldier who receives provocation at every turn.

We can judge from the safety of our homes pictures brought to us via satellite, as we carry out our "normal" lives. But it must be so easy to snap in those situations,when people who one minute are seemingly going about their everyday business,suddenly begin pelting you with rocks and whatever else they can lay their hands on. Nerves must be taught as wire at the best of times.

There are games of "dare" going on also where, as life has no future for so many of these people they can only hope to bask momentarily in the admiration of their twisted comrades.

This beating was not acceptable to any decent person,nor might I add is the twisted rhetoric and butchering of innocents that the "insurgents" are so proud to stage for cameras at the drop of a hat.

As an aside, those that just condemned this beating out of hand,are you equally outraged about the two prison officers battered to a pulp in Bellmarsh prison over the past few days? Attacked with both a snooker queue(sp) and tins of tuna concealed inside a sock,(believe me being hit with that when it has been swung at you is damned painful) And the perpetrators where? Islamic extremists!

13-02-06, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biker Biggles

For what it's worth I think it is unfair and immoral to send groups of armed young men into situations like we see here and expect them NOT to react in this way.Giving a good hiding to those who have just been involved in trying to kill you is not unreasonable IMHO,and I'm amazed there's not more of it.
I find it hypocritical when the great and the good get on their high horses about it.When was the last time they had rocks and petrol bombs thrown at them?
I'm not ex military but I have been in vaguely comparable situations in my youth and I showed rather less restraint at times than those squaddies.So I won't condemn them from the comfort of my living room.

So, there is a teacher, and 3 of his students key up his car. He knows they do this, but cant proove it. Cant do anything about it. So, in class, he refers to them as niggers. What's the answer nigger? And so on.

This is ok? No. It's unacceptable. Its that simple. Its unacceptable behaviour. It should, and will be punished.

13-02-06, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Henry

As an aside, those that just condemned this beating out of hand,are you equally outraged about the two prison officers battered to a pulp in Bellmarsh prison over the past few days? Attacked with both a snooker queue(sp) and tins of tuna concealed inside a sock,(believe me being hit with that when it has been swung at you is damned painful) And the perpetrators where? Islamic extremists!

Yup.
It doesnt mean that I think its fine for the officers to beat seven shades of shi'ite out of them the following day. I would defend officers using fatal force to defend themselves in a situation. I would do the same. If its me or him, and he is the aggressor, its him.

Its differant to go in a while later, and batter them.

This is vengence.

Biker Biggles · 13-02-06, 10:03 PM

Phil Mac-----I'm sure you are correct,but for the life of me I can't see the connection between what I wrote and what you said in reply.

13-02-06, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biker Biggles

Phil Mac-----I'm sure you are correct,but for the life of me I can't see the connection between what I wrote and what you said in reply.

ha ha ha. Sorry mate.

All I am saying is if a person of authority, a soldier representing his government and his country is, while under duress, just lashing out and doing low vengeful things, he cannot use "I was under duress" as an excuse and expect things to work out fine for him.

13-02-06, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by northwind

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggis

I'm not sure if i picked it up right but I think the bulletin on the radio mentioned the footage was leaked by News of the World. It seems that anything is OK to report on these days as long as it's gonna sell.

I remember hearing a propoganda phrase from the time of WW2, 'Careless talk costs lives', seems appropriate on this occasion too. They should be 100% behind our lads. Whether they should be there is another matter, but as long as they are don't go screwing it up shouting your mouth off.

I don't buy that. "My country right or wrong" These guys are acting on our behalf, in our name- we sent them there, we can't turn a blind eye to things they might do wrong just because they're "our boys".

Turning a blind eye achieves nothing- worse than that, it just means we're more likely to send them off into some other hellhole to get rocks or worse chucked at them. It's not being "behind the troops" to allow yourself to be ignorant of what they're being put through in our name. Maybe having a proper eyeful of the reality of the situation we've created will mean next time someone wants to send them off, we know what we're asking of them.

At the end of the day, are we not supposed to be the good guys? Joe made a reference to doing it the Israeli way... If we sink to that then we're ****ed.

Sorry I should have elaborated more.

I just think the press ought to think before they publish stuff like this. It's not just people in Iraq reading it. The London bombings were an indirect result of coverage here changing the mindset of guys who at one time were as benign as you and I. Having seen the footage I agree it's totally wrong to beat up what looks like young teenagers, but then again you're seeing kids of 10 on the news carrying Kalashnikovs so why should they not be considered a threat?

The whole Middle east thing is one big f*** up ,and maybe there is no way of resolving it - short of the complete decimation of one side. Who can tell? In historical timescales, it's not so very long since Europe was just as volatile.

northwind · 13-02-06, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggis

I just think the press ought to think before they publish stuff like this. It's not just people in Iraq reading it. The London bombings were an indirect result of coverage here changing the mindset of guys who at one time were as benign as you and I. Having seen the footage I agree it's totally wrong to beat up what looks like young teenagers, but then again you're seeing kids of 10 on the news carrying Kalashnikovs so why should they not be considered a threat?

Sorry mate, misunderstood your position a little. Personally I'd say that these guys played completely into the hands of these extremists- giving those scumbags ammunition isn't what I'd call wise. But I think that to blame the press for reporting it is just wrong-headed, they don't make the situation, they just tell the story.

But then, I think I've overlaboured that point

14-02-06, 12:32 AM

I think it would take restraint beyond the average person's to meet the standards that some on here expect.

northwind · 14-02-06, 12:40 AM

Perhaps. But then again, we have thousands of troops in Iraq just now and not all of them are beating the crap out of teenagers.

Whatever I might think about the war, our troops have exceeded all expectations in Iraq... They've been absolutely magnificent. IMO it's a tragedy that the actions of a minority are going to overshadow that for the time being.

13-02-06, 08:54 PM	#31
Biker Biggles Member Mega Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Barnet Herts Posts: 5,071	For what it's worth I think it is unfair and immoral to send groups of armed young men into situations like we see here and expect them NOT to react in this way.Giving a good hiding to those who have just been involved in trying to kill you is not unreasonable IMHO,and I'm amazed there's not more of it. I find it hypocritical when the great and the good get on their high horses about it.When was the last time they had rocks and petrol bombs thrown at them? I'm not ex military but I have been in vaguely comparable situations in my youth and I showed rather less restraint at times than those squaddies.So I won't condemn them from the comfort of my living room. __________________ On a clear day we stand there and look further than the ordinary eye can see.

13-02-06, 10:03 PM	#35
Biker Biggles Member Mega Poster Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Barnet Herts Posts: 5,071	Phil Mac-----I'm sure you are correct,but for the life of me I can't see the connection between what I wrote and what you said in reply. __________________ On a clear day we stand there and look further than the ordinary eye can see.

14-02-06, 12:40 AM	#40
northwind Moderator Mega Poster Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In the garage where I belong Posts: 17,083	Perhaps. But then again, we have thousands of troops in Iraq just now and not all of them are beating the crap out of teenagers. Whatever I might think about the war, our troops have exceeded all expectations in Iraq... They've been absolutely magnificent. IMO it's a tragedy that the actions of a minority are going to overshadow that for the time being. __________________ "We are the angry mob, we read the papers every day We like what we like, we hate what we hate But we're oh so easily swayed"

13-02-06, 09:02 PM	#32
Peter Henry Guest Posts: n/a	Ignoring the political back drop of Iraq I feel we must be aware that the alien environment of dealing with street militia and crazed hoardes of civilians is not something that your average soldier receives in depth training on. The beating that was metered out which was shown so graphically in the video cannot be justified,however some empathy with the average young soldier who receives provocation at every turn. We can judge from the safety of our homes pictures brought to us via satellite, as we carry out our "normal" lives. But it must be so easy to snap in those situations,when people who one minute are seemingly going about their everyday business,suddenly begin pelting you with rocks and whatever else they can lay their hands on. Nerves must be taught as wire at the best of times. There are games of "dare" going on also where, as life has no future for so many of these people they can only hope to bask momentarily in the admiration of their twisted comrades. This beating was not acceptable to any decent person,nor might I add is the twisted rhetoric and butchering of innocents that the "insurgents" are so proud to stage for cameras at the drop of a hat. As an aside, those that just condemned this beating out of hand,are you equally outraged about the two prison officers battered to a pulp in Bellmarsh prison over the past few days? Attacked with both a snooker queue(sp) and tins of tuna concealed inside a sock,(believe me being hit with that when it has been swung at you is damned painful) And the perpetrators where? Islamic extremists!

14-02-06, 12:32 AM	#39
Ed Guest Posts: n/a	I think it would take restraint beyond the average person's to meet the standards that some on here expect.