Socialism

Oh incidentally, I take it anyone here in favour of socialism would happily surrender their bike and travel on public transport?

Nothing works 100% to please everyone 100% of the time.
Capitalism is a load of crap, but its the best option right now.

Originally Posted by northwind

North Korea isn't socialist. And Soviet Poland wasn't socialist. This is the trouble with these conversations, someone always says "Socialism doesn't work, look at (non-socialist country X). The post war soviet era owed nothing to socialism.

Strange that throughout my whole education I was told that I was brought up in socialist country (till 1989 that is).. The denomination: Polska Rzeczpospolita Ludowa which translates as People's Republic of Poland does bring socialism's equality concept to mind , doesn't it?

Socialism and comunism such as described by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels are impossible to implement and, as per some of the above posts, were just a philosophical concept. Therefore, although I can agree with you that Poland was not a socialist country in the pure, philosophical sense of the word, it was the closest you could get to it in real life. The economy was fully nationalised and belonged to everyone apparently.. Everyone was supposed to be equal and have equal chances of social progression. In theory that is.

It is easy to say that "someone always says "Socialism doesn't work, look at (non-socialist country X). The post war soviet era owed nothing to socialism". It is also easy to sympathise with a ideological concept of a perfect society where everyone is equal.
It is not that easy to leave in a country with a political system inspired by those lofty ideas...

Ps. I do love Rage Against..

Originally Posted by northwind

Poland's economy crashed long before the socialist government took over (under the soviet system, which obviously isn't socialism)

Polish economy did not crash before the socialist government took over... But again I have probably been mislead all of my life

Originally Posted by Ceri JC

Oh incidentally, I take it anyone here in favour of socialism would happily surrender their bike and travel on public transport?

Yes, I'd give up my car, and not have a motorbike if public transport was more like other countries. Never had a problem using the trains, underground, buses, minibuses, and once or twice the taxis for a month whilst in HK. I go there quite a lot. I despise using British public transport though.



Small confession, I don't really care much about the anti-capitalist side of Rise Against. When I got into them years ago, this was my favourite song/lyrics.




This place rings with echoes of
Lives once lived, but now are lost
Times spent wondering about tomorrow

I don't care, if we lose it all tonight
Up in flames, burning bright
Warming the air of the world

"I don't love you anymore", is all
I remember you telling me, never have I felt so cold
But I've no more blood to bleed
'cause my heart has been draining into the sea

Steps I take in your footsteps
Are getting me closer to what is left
Of the dreams of what I once claimed to know

Within my bones this resonates
Boiling blood will circulate
Could you tell me again what you did this for?

"I don't love you anymore", is all
I remember you telling me, never have I felt so cold
But I've no more blood to bleed
'cause my heart has been draining into the sea

Well still I wait with a hope inside of me (inside of me)
So still I wait until again we meet, until again we meet

Within my bones this resonates
Boiling blood will circulate
Could you tell me again what you did this for?

"I don't love you anymore", is all
I remember you telling me, never have I felt so cold
But I've no more blood to bleed
'cause my heart has been draining into the sea

And still I wait with a hope inside of me
And still I wait

I'm not an emo.

[Ruffy]

Are there any good examples of socialist principles at work?

Closer to home, is the NHS a good socialist idea? I know it's currently flawed in implementation, but the principle's OK, isn't it?

[northwind]

Originally Posted by Ceri JC

Oh incidentally, I take it anyone here in favour of socialism would happily surrender their bike and travel on public transport?

You wouldn't have to Silly misinformation. Even communism (let alone socialism) isn't about giving only the basics to everyone, it's about ensuring that everyone has their basic needs fulfilled before you start giving trinkets to everyone else. This wouldn't be hard to do these days, it wouldn't even need a dramatic wealth redistribution.

Originally Posted by martianskippy

Strange that throughout my whole education I was told that I was brought up in socialist country (till 1989 that is).. The denomination: Polska Rzeczpospolita Ludowa which translates as People's Republic of Poland does bring socialism's equality concept to mind , doesn't it?

Yep, and the Nazis were the Nationalsozialismus Party, does that make them socialist?

Have to admit I got my dates wrong, a lot of places talk of post-Solidarity Poland as post-soviet socialism, which looking again doesn't really seem to be borne out at all, it's a nice thought but it doesn't really seem it worked that way since that was just a new chapter in martial law. But the Polish economy was hammered from WW2 onwards, rationing never left FFS, and got worse through 1970.

No offence, but if you grew up in Poland before 1989, don't be too surprised if a lot of what you were taught in school was propaganda. Do some independant research now, see if it tallies.

[northwind]

Originally Posted by Ruffy

Are there any good examples of socialist principles at work?

Closer to home, is the NHS a good socialist idea? I know it's currently flawed in implementation, but the principle's OK, isn't it?

Absolutely. As is Medicare in the states, although a much worse example. Benefits for the critically ill, child benefit, a lot of state benefits in fact. Free schooling too.

Socialism always gets lumped in with communism, it's just daft frankly, they're not 2 points on the same scale, they're totally different approaches. Just as capitalism and socialism are also not two mutually exclusive things.

Can't socialism basically be defined as the government controlling the countries money? In which case the UK and even the US are pretty much there...

[northwind]

No. Well, some people would say so but they're a) clearly wrong b) always pro-market freedom and c) almost invariably conservatives That'd be a major trait of a socialist system but it's a means to the end, not the end itself- you can have a government control a country's money without the slightest element of socialism.