Scary statistics for bikers in Wales

[Red Herring]

Originally Posted by Ed

The R1 in the YouTube vid wasn't going that fast - was it? The tacho didn't seem very high, the rider had backed off to go round the bend. Road positioning wasn't brilliant but there was oncoming.

Could he stop in the distance he (they) could see to be clear? That's the first rule of cornering on the road, not have you got your knee down yet.
When the car driver started to pull out the bike was not in sight so they can hardly be blamed can they? What would you have them do, sit there forever just in case a bike comes around the bend to fast?

[Red Herring]

Originally Posted by Dave20046

Apparently a car's almost double as likely to pull out across your path from right to left.

just a random gloomy statistic...

Logical Captain......

All vehicles pulling out of a side road occupy the side of the road nearest to them. If they turn left they stay on it, if they turn right they cross it.... If the bike is coming from the left and the car is turning left no problem, they won't clash, so in at least a quarter of instances when a vehicle emerges from a junction there won't be a collision.
Also if the bike is coming from the left and the car is turning right there is greater separation so both driver and rider have longer to react to each other, so better chance of no crash.


There are lots of clues that will help you stay out of trouble at T junctions. The obvious ones like slow down and pay attention to signs have already been mentioned, and as demonstrated in the R1 video leave time for other motorists to see and react to your presence. Other good clues are where is the driver looking (that's why the old bill don't like heavily tinted side windows), are they creeping, are they on the phone, what's coming the other way. The last one is a tip often overlooked, car drivers turning right don't often pull out in front of lorries, but they do go for gaps in traffic. If there is nothing coming the other way and you have a car waiting in a junction the only reason they haven't pulled out is you.....If the junction is to the nearside get out on the crown of the road (or further still) to give yourself as much room as possible, if to the offside then be ready to stop and start eyeing up gaps in the nearside hedge (I kid you not). The earlier you plan the more time you have to make a decision, there should be no such thing as an emergency stop, that means you didn't plan it!

I just saw the r1 video... And watched a couple more from the same guy.. He ain't got much to live the way he's riding. On the subject of statistics (first + second link): notice that the total death toll is far lower now then it used to be. And considering that the total number of car accidents in the same amount of time (1979-200 has also decreased, but not by as much, I'd say that between riders getting more training and better road planning, they have somewhat brought the numbers down.
I think what would really bring the number down dramatically would be two simple things :
1. Teaching car drivers to actively search for smaller vehicles whilst at a junction
2. Teaching riders to take it easier the first 6 years...
The first point is more then obvious (40% right of way violations), and could easily be implemented by campaigns aimed at drivers (and I don't mean just tv adds - which they forget by the time they come to a junction, but also posters near junctions to remind cagers we're out there).
The second one is because in 11% the motorcyclist lost control in a bend/corner/curve... and it seems that the ones aged 16-20 are the ones that do this most often.
Between these two, there's an easy 50%... And maybe once the drivers try to be more aware of our presence (and right of way), there will be a further drop induced by the reduction in the rest of the cases where the driver is at fault (of total, that acounts for close to 80%)

What does amaze me is that i've seen an extensive study done in the states back in the '70-'80s and the causes and proportions remained the same. So although they have started to train riders better (which is a GREAT thing, as nothing keeps you more safe then yourself) and plan for better roads, they still didn't adress the main cause for motorcycle deaths (car drivers)... which is simply put, sad..

[Red Herring]

Whilst supporting your view that more could be done to increase car drivers awareness of motorcyclist I also have to add that some motorcyclists could do with appreciating the car drivers point of view. If you are doing something on your bike that is unique to motorcycles, for example filtering, then just bear in mind that a car driver may not be expecting to see you there. This is particularly relevant around junctions when a motorcyclist filtering up the outside of a line of traffic may not be seen or expected by a car driver emerging through the line. The statistic will show it was a collision at a T junction, and technically it will go down as the drivers fault, however in my view it was totally preventable with just a little appreciation on the part of the motorcyclist.

[Biker Biggles]

Agree with that and would add the car turning right scenario.They should check their mirror but actually are concentrating on what is coming the other way.

I do agree with you on this one. Especially with regard to the filtering & junctions. There is no way for a car driver to spot the top of a helmet. And the fact that we're small also doesn't help visibility... I imagine someone in a ferrari would also have trouble at junctions when they're obscured by other cars..

We are kinda pushing it filtering at speeds greater then 10mph at junctions..
Btw, I did once get into an accident (very small) whilst filtering that was actually my fault entirely. The traffic was completely bogged down and I was filtering (very slowly) between the lines of cars, when I come up to two of them which were much closer together then the rest. I stopped, look & looked again and said "Yeah, the bike fits". Which was correct. I folded the mirrors and procedeed very slowly (3 mph). And I was right, the bike did fit. Just not with me on top of it (my legs added 2 inches too much).. And I got stuck in traffic, literally!
Of course, the two drivers got ****ed and said things like "why can't you wait like everyone else!??!" (which is a complete hipocracy, seeing as how if their cars would fit through holes in traffic, they would take them), but eventually calmed down.. Meanwhile, I was tippy toeing my way back and eventually we did all get moving.. I laugh at it today, but I think on that account they would spread the word of how bad bikers are in traffic..

[ophic]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

If the junction is to the nearside get out on the crown of the road (or further still) to give yourself as much room as possible

Just a note - imho in traffic it's sometimes wise to do the opposite, to make sure you are seen.

[Red Herring]

I guess the choice is go somewhere where you might be seen, but are vulnerable if they don't see you, or go somewhere where they couldn't hit you even if they tried....

[ophic]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

I guess the choice is go somewhere where you might be seen, but are vulnerable if they don't see you, or go somewhere where they couldn't hit you even if they tried....

Aye. Sometimes though there's no safe space.