Menezes health and safety hearing

I get jumpy just on computer games!

Additional to the regrettable and tragic slaying of Menezes there is for me a far greater problem here. It is simply that Joe Public can only feel even more insecure due to the elite of the Police force committing inexcusable ,amateurish mistakes.

The citizens should be able to rest easy at night in the knowledge that those who serve them in the Police force are the right kind of people and that those chosen for specialist roles are of the highest calibre possible.

On the back of this disturbing case is the fact that thousands of truly dedicated,responsible and honest police officers run the risk of themselves being tarred with the same brush as those whose ineptitude and total irresponsibility we are now discussing.

[Spiderman]

The idea of "innocent unitl proven guilty" has not existed in reality in this country for a number of years in my opinion. Its always been closer to "if the cops point the finger at you then you are probably guilty...unless you can prove your innocence"

However its now the complete oposite as far as senior police oofiers are concerned.... Asked what she was thinking at the time, she said: "I did not have any intelligence telling me that he was not carrying a bomb....

Errrm, so did you have any intel telling you he was carrying anything even remotely suspicious you stupid woman.

Further on in the article she describes JC's behaviors as suspicous..."The behaviours that were described in terms of nervousness, agitation, sending text messages, using the telephone, then getting on and off the bus all added to the picture-of someone potentially intent on causing an explosion."

So next time you catch a bus and its running late due to the traffic do try not to look nervous or aggitated tha you are late for work yet again, dont contact your bosses by text or phone to tell them you're running a little late and dont for gods sake think of getting on the bus in front cos you think it may get you there faster and then get back on the one you were on cos you realise the one in front is broken down. Cos then you're a prome target for assisnation.

This woman i believe is the one who made a right royal mess of things and needs to be held accountable.

Full story here... http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...ing/article.do

Interesting how special bullets that are designed to deliver more of their force to the actual target than a standard one that can pass through, were used to hit this poor guy 7 TIMES!! FFS.

Spiderman...I have constantly said that this was a mess and that someone needs to be responsible.

However...I will defend the Police as an organisation and what it does. I will not defend individuals who do wrong.

http://www.shropshirestar.com/2007/0...cer-shot-dead/

See...I can pick out individual cases too.

[Spiderman]

Basket...please dont take this as me being cold hearted/beligerant or argumentative BUT you sign up for the job well aware of the dangers, right?

Every serving officer knows that whilst in uniform they are a target for all kinds of things, from the mundane to the outright murderous. I mean how many times have cops in uniform had to turn a deaf ear to a bunch of toe rags calling them pigs or making oink noises as they pass by?

Point i'm making is this guy who was killed found himself in a tragic and unforseen situation. He was a friearms officer from what i can make out of that story....but why was a firearms officer sent to a domestic distrubance i wonder? maybe no one else available, who knows? But its all in the line of duty.

Now the rest of us who dont wear a uniform expect those that do to conduct themselves accordingly.

Sadly you boys in uniform cant expect the same of the public when you get called out to a situation. What happended to this fella is wrong on so many levels and i personaly agree with the death sentance for this type of killing (police officer or not being the victim btw) but it seems the coward who killed him knew he was in for a rough ride so chose the easy way out and killed himself.

However i cant see any similarity in a case where a serving police officer is killed in the line of duty to a case where serving police officers kill innocent members of the public simply because they dont take the appropriate measure before openign fire...which really should be the ultimate last resort action.

Again, please understand that i'm not anti police but i do have very strong feeling about those who pull trigers when other alternatives are available to them. Especially when their actions are based on the flimsiest of evidence.

[Ruffy]

Originally Posted by Spiderman

... i do have very strong feeling about those who pull trigers when other alternatives are available to them. ...

So do I - I expect those criminals who use weapons to use the alternative of being law abiding!

At the root of this is the moral fact that society seems to tolerate it's own members who choose to ignore the law and just expect the police service to deal with the fallout. Unfortunately, the general populus seems to have abdicated it's responsibilities because it finds them too hard to fulfil, yet it still expects the police to be 100% perfect in the face of increasing adversity.

I think we all need to break the cycle by supporting the police (as an organisation) in their business instead of complaining that they are intruding on our lives. At least then we would have some chance of being confident that a situation like the Menezes case doesn't re-occur. If we just point blame and find a scapegoat for this particular incident, will we see real change?

Personally, I am still many, many times more concerned about becoming a victim of criminal activity than a victim of police mistake. However tragic this incident, I am still happy to leave the police service to learn it's own lessons. I still believe that the fundamental aim of their operation was to prevent a terrorist attack and not just to assassinate an innocent individual. The operation was (very) flawed but they were trying to do the right thing. We all agree that they must do better next time.

May I add my 20p from experience?

Short barrelled weapons are inaccurate, particularly of the 9mm calibre types. You can stand at 20 metres, on a calm day, under no other stress, fire 13 rounds at a man sized target aiming for the centre of it's body mass (torso) and miss with some of your shots. That's not crap shooting, that's the characteristics of short barrelled weapons. (from my experience 9mm Browning)

I don't know what distance the engagement took place at but it is a known (i hesitate to use the word fact) that a marksman's accuracy drops when he's under stress. I have no doubt that this was a stressful occurence and the adrenaline pumping round the policemen's bodies would have had an effect on their accuracy as well. Control of breathing is an incredibly important factor in good shooting. Closing in on someone who is a terrorist suspect bent on suicide bombing (they thought that at the time) would have any fat pie eater blowing out of his ring.

Speed of firing has an impact on accuracy as well. I'd bet your granny that they never fired at the rapid rate of fire (one every two seconds) which gives you the firer sufficient time to control the involuntary reflexes of muscles and the natural movement of the weapon as the recoil has an effect. I would suggest that they shot at a faster rate than this, which is another factor in causing inaccuracy when shooting. (so is snatching the trigger but I won't go into that). They probably shot so fast because of what they believed Mr Menezez to be.

To conclude, the accuracy rate isn't that bad given the sitation they faced. And they will have been following ROE, the key point being about the use of force and the belief that the individual was about to commit or in the process of commiting an act likely to cause a loss of life. Likewise, the guidelines suggest that you may fire no more aimed shots than is neccessary. I can't remember it all fully; i'd have to get my card out but cannot be remotely arsed......

In my opinion, and without reading the facts surrounding the case, it sounds to me that the act of the policemen was probably within the law and inline with current training (ROE is not law, it's a guideline to follow). The sad part was the failure of the intelligence which led to an innocent man being killed

As to Gwent police "popping caps off on auto" that sounds like a "fun" shoot (as in not part of their annual training, but more to do with weapon capability familiarisation etc - or some wizeguy switched his change lever to "A" in the locker room...) because they certainly would be unlikely in the extreme to use auto in most situations when applying force (see comment about ROE above)

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by Ruffy

.....The operation was (very) flawed but they were trying to do the right thing. We all agree that they must do better next time.

Well you see it that way as do many of those who have posted in this thread. Whether they are pro-police or anti it seems most peeps still agree that this operation was flawed.

Right?

So why does this deluded woman make these comments in court....

Clare Montgomery QC, prosecuting, asked why an armed response unit, who were allegedly scrambled to the address in the early morning, were not at the scene.

Miss D*ck said: "If that is what happened it seems like there has been some miscommunication. That can happen in the Met Police."

Asked if there were "flaws" in the operation which led to Mr de Menezes's death, Miss D*ck said: "I don't think there were flaws.

"There are things we would do differently today, but I don't think there were flaws."

Ms D*ck gave the ambiguous order to "stop" him getting on the train when he was already on his way to it and in all probability would be on it by the time her boys arrived. She goes on to say how she didnt give the order to shoot. But defends her guys for having done so due to his behaviour.

Bear in mind he was tackled by one officer who pinned his arms to his sides and forced him back into his seat.
What the hell "behaviours" could he have exhibited at the time as 2 others guys with pistols drawn approched him?
I know my behavious would be one of panic and fear and probably screaming "let go of me! dont shoot me!!!!!! WTF is going on!?!?" Yet this woman is trying to say he did something that so worried her officers they had no other choice but to open fire and kill him? While he was still being held by the first officer the other 2 opened fire!!

But the operation wasn't flawed in her eyes, oh no.

If she admits she is wrong then she is going to take the blame.