AR Marking Discussion

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Baph
I personally felt that the group of markers on AR07 were the "elitest few" for want of better words.

Originally Posted by fizzwheel

OK, so did you feel the same about that with regard to AR08 ?

I wasn't at AR07 but I was at AR08 so I'll answer for Baph
Yes.

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by Baph

Then there we disagree. If you maintain that attitude towards it, marking on the AR will always be limited to those that know each other personally, and especially those new to the site (who may of been riding for years to an advanced level) will feel excluded.

I dont think we're disagreeing tbh, more like seeing opposite sides of the same coin.
I agree that it does limit new members...but for a while. As an example all thru this thread i've mentioned Demonz (grant) and his riding. I'm sure if i was not wanting to be a marker and my opinion for a replacment was sought i'd suggest him. Why? Cos he's never been an AR marker and i think he'd be an asset to the team.
BTW i've ridden with Demonz 3 times over probably as many years now. Once to an AR i think, once somewhere else and once on a day trip to France. I probably shared those experiences with a few others too but as i said before none of the riding i saw left a memory on me, either bad or good...except his as being exceptional in a pack.

[fizzwheel]

Originally Posted by Baph

I personally believe option 1 is the better, but it's how those riders are picked that I'm suggesting is looked at.

Points noted. It does need looking at, but we can debate the matter till we're blue in the face.

We're now going round in circles which isnt helping matters either.

I honestly feel that its to late now to change the marker system for AR09 and I dont want Supervox to go through extra stress about this years arrangements especially as time is ticking away.

However I will promise this :

1. When it comes to next year it will be done differently, the whole point of this thread is so that we know where we went wrong and we can do things differently. As Stu says I want this to be more inclusive and as a team / forum we need to find a way to do this that does so, but at the same time doesnt comprise the safety of the rideout itself.

2. I have my name down for marking this year. I am quite willing to give up my bib. Its not surgically attatched to it. I really dont care whether I do it or not. So if anybody wants to take my place they should speak to Supervox about it.

3. If Supervox decides he wants to open this years route marking up and change this years arrangements I will leave that to his discression. At the end of the day he is ride organiser and he must be comfortable IMHO with the arrangements.

I'll apologise now for this derail, but I think it's needed.

Stu, I know I just said the same in PM, but seriously, thank you. I've been saying in threads recently about having conversations with people outside the forum, but hardly any of those people have been vocal in those threads. As such, I've vowed to only put my opinions forwards, and not wave a stick to show that there's issues that exist.

I know we're talked about marking at the ARs, outside the forum in the past Stu, so again, thank you for having the conviction to post publicly.

EDITED to prevent the circle continuing.

Originally Posted by fizzwheel

Points noted. It does need looking at, but we can debate the matter till we're blue in the face.

We're now going round in circles which isnt helping matters either.

Fizz, thank you. That's all that was needed pages ago. I agree that things are going around in circles. I've made my point, it's been listened to, so I'll now bow out of the thread, with the utmost respect to those involved with the planning.

I also agree it's too late to change anything about AR09.

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by Stu

So...why not put in place some format for those keen to be a dedicated marker to make themselves known? and publicise it far & wide with those putting themselves forward knowing that they are subject to being either an unknown quantity, or a known hazard and will not be selected.

Thats what i'm asing for my man. I've wracked all my little grey cells again and again and really cant see a usefull or constructive way of doing this so i'm asking for ideas. Any well thought out ideas are more than welcome.

Originally Posted by Baph

I'll apologise now for this derail, but I think it's needed.

Stu, I know I just said the same in PM, but seriously, thank you. I've been saying in threads recently about having conversations with people outside the forum, but hardly any of those people have been vocal in those threads. As such, I've vowed to only put my opinions forwards, and not wave a stick to show that there's issues that exist.

I know we're talked about marking at the ARs, outside the forum in the past Stu, so again, thank you for having the conviction to post publicly.

Absolutely right Baph and i thank you too Stu. I really do want everyone who has thought the system isn't perfect and can think of a way to adjust the system to speak up.

I think Baph has done a sterling job getting the bedate this far but i encourage EVERYBODY else who's ever been to an AR, weather they had issue with the marking or not, to put their thinking caps on and present a good idea that we can discuss and disect and adjust until we come up with somethign better that works.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Spiderman

Thats what i'm asing for my man. I've wracked all my little grey cells again and again and really cant see a usefull or constructive way of doing this so i'm asking for ideas. Any well thought out ideas are more than welcome.

Well, I would have started a public poll asking who is definitely coming to the AR and who would like to be a dedicated marker.

This would have resulted in a list such as
Airwolf, AlpineCarStereo, arcdef, Bear, Bender, Bluethunder, Cazza, ChrisCaveman, davepreston, El Saxo, EssexDave, foxyinleather, Girth, Jinxy43, joshmac, Lozzo, Magnum, mattSV, Miss Alpinestarhero, Mogs, MR UKI (1), phil24_7, Raf, RichT, Spiderman, Stig_Of_The_Dump, Stu, Supervox, TazDaz, teriyakimonkey, the_lone_wolf, VolatileParsley, warg60
(This is TLW's poll of who's coming)
From that list you could easily discount a few such as:
arcdef, "sorry but you're new so we don't know anything about you"
Miss Alpinestarhero "sorry but you're a pillion"
The rest can be discussed among the AR organising committee to get the number you need and the rest can get the answer "thanks for offering, but we've got enough, we'll bear you in mind for next year or anything else requiring organising on the day such as the organised rideout from the campsite to the start of the ride which would have been nice in AR08.
Now you may end up with the exactly same people as if it had been all done behind closed doors
But at least you won't end up with people offering beforehand and not being wanted only to find out that the Soho Massive was asked to do so on the day of the AR.
Or people wanting to offer but seeing as they are not moderators then they can't put their name on the same list that Fizz put his on.

[Spiderman]

Thanks Stu.

i thought part of the issue for some was that there was a team of dedicated markers, not just who they were or how the selection was made. i thought that some wanted it to be a "2nd man drop off" system? perhaps thos that do will post something relevant in due course.

personaly i think a dedicated team is better but thats just my view of course.

The only small problem i can see with your suggestion is that we may simply be inundated with volunteers and to weed out the suitable ones would be very time consuming.

Also if we make a shortlist and some of those dont make it on the day then we'll be having to ask others that were put down as stand bys. And if they are not "feeling it" that day then are we asking too much of them and putting them on the spot, making them feel that they must say yes for being thought of as a let down? I know a few people had a few too many shandies last year the night before the rideout, anyone chosen to mark knows they cant be doing that.

As a wise man once said...with great power comes great responsibility. Now where might i have heard that i wonder?

[Stu]

Hand on heart, yes I would prefer a 2nd man system than dedicated markers.

BUT just up the warnings given to people that
1. You do not leave your post until tomorrow If the Police tell you to move on, just say you've broken down (flick the kill switch) & it's unlikely they would start your bike for you - no other excuse is valid for moving before the TEC
2. You only overtake when safe to do so & once you approach the front you stop overtaking and only progress to 2nd man by people in front of you marking.

But I'm not organising and if dedicated marking has been decided upon so be it.
I thought this thread was trying to make the dedicated marking system more transparent & inclusive.

I don't see how weeding out the volunteers could be more time consuming than starting with a blank sheet of paper & deciding who you are going to ask to be a marker.
I thought a shortlist was the system in place for 07, 08 & 09 - you seem to be arguing against dedicated markers

I like the idea of markers as being people that have been proactive in the community and have either participated in ride-outs as a marker/organiser and/or has ridden in the host area with the organiser a few times. I think you guys are right from a safety perspective with so many bikes it is the right thing to do.

But I really think that if being a marker was open and inclusive then it could foster greater pariticipation should folks wish to be part of this.

A suggesiton. How about creating some criterea to be markers on the day. One of the criterea could be any new markers must participate with a shakedown run with the ride leader as well as ridden the system as part of a group on the route. This could happen as part of the overall organisation etc and could help the organiser to ensure the routes and hazards are all checked prior as I am sure the organiser would like feedback and assistance.

Or if they are not local then they must have organised a few of local runs using the drop-off system with their section. Maybe it would help to build a greater local community through this as well. When I mean use the drop off system then use and communicate a standard set of rules such as what we used for France. These rules work when communicated clearly.

Other critereas maybe they are included for being IAM members or the such which all know the marker system well and I would consider as some of the safer riders out there who can bring a wealth of knowledge along with them. We can steel part of their regime and integrate it into our own values for training or meeting a criterea first.

Eitherway if you have a lot of folks that are professional enough to make the effort and meet the given criterea and the criterea is sensible and available to all then great.

I disagree with thinking markers have been chosen and thats that as I dont think you could have to many markers in a ride-out. In fact I think it would make it even safer as it would mean there is less pressure for markers to overtake and cause undue stress on all trying to get to the head. They can take their time moving ahead.


On another note if people are not markers and want to stop or drop off along the way then I think this should be encouraged and communicated to all. If a marker sees they are a potential hazard they are right there to say something to them. It's neat to see bikes going past and everyone likes to see the pictures afterwards. It gives riders the opportunity to participate = everyone can be included .