Scary statistics for bikers in Wales

[Stu]

Originally Posted by ophic

Just a note - imho in traffic it's sometimes wise to do the opposite, to make sure you are seen.

As long as you don't mean the gutter (being the complete opposite of the crown) cars pulling out don't look along the gutter because only slow moving cyclists & mopeds are there.

to me that just screams that most bikers die as a result of people glancing on approach to a give way/stop junction. Then having seen no large objects heading their way they continue out of their road across the path of a rider. Doesnt matter 1 bit if he's as eagle eyed as a well, eagle! if something happens less than your braking distance then you'll hit it. I'd be interested how many accidents happen at roundabouts. Best junctions ever IMO safest by miles.

[tigersaw]

I notice in the collation of the statistics a fracture is considered a serious injury

[yorkie_chris]

Originally Posted by tigersaw

I notice in the collation of the statistics a fracture is considered a serious injury

When I fractured pretty much all of bones in my wrist it felt pretty serious

Originally Posted by leedsmatt7

I'd be interested how many accidents happen at roundabouts. Best junctions ever IMO safest by miles.

Looking at the data, roundabouts are the second most risky (75 ksi / year), although four times less likely then a T junction. The least risky are actually mini roundabouts. Size does matter!

Originally Posted by Red Herring

The earlier you plan the more time you have to make a decision, there should be no such thing as an emergency stop, that means you didn't plan it!

Disagree... you can't predict the actions of some morons, like the one who pulled out in front of me at a crossroads Sunday. I couldn't swerve right cos there was a car intending to turn right across me (ie from the right), and had stopped in the middle of the junction for me to pass. The one who pulled out (ie from the left) had looked but not seen. I thought he might have done this, so I had closed the throttle in anticipation. Commenting on the R1 rider, you say you can't expect drivers to sit and wait forever in case a bike comes round the corner too fast, but equally you can't expect riders with the clear right of way to crawl through a junction in case someone pulls out in front of you in violation of the give way markings.

No matter how experienced/ observant you are there will always be occasions when an emergency stop is required, especially at junctions, but with experience and advanced training the occasions when they are needed become less and less. Perhaps if Ed hadn't done the I A M course he may not have already rolled off the throttle in anticipation of the driver doing something totally unexpected. As in all cases anticipation, observation and road positioning will help to avoid an accident but will never eradicate accidents completely.

Daryl

Im sure when i did my bike training it wasnt called an emergency stop anymore, like someone said it implies that it wasnt anticipated.
I dont think on driving tuition its called that now either, cant remember exactly what my instructor called it, something like a controlled avoidance stop ???
I will look this up as i really cant remember which is pretty bad as it was only nov 08, lol.

[Red Herring]

Ed, I guess it depends on how you define an emergency stop. In my book an emergency is an unforseen event that has dire consequences.
If you're done the IAM course you will know that riding plans are based on three things, what can be seen, what cannot be seen, and what may reasonably be expected to happen, You say you saw the car waiting in the middle of the road, and the vehicle in the side road, and it's reasonable to expect one of them to move (most of this thread seems to be about the fact that they do). Having anticipated that one of them might move you need to have a plan to deal with it and yours was to roll off a bit and slow down. Even if one of them does move and you have to go for the brakes as well that shouldn't be an emergency, just hard braking, or are you suggesting you believed that rolling off was all that would ever be needed? Switched on riders are already covering the brake lever in such circumstances and if they've got someone close behind even rubbed the brakes to show a brake light (there's not much point you stopping if you then get compacted by 38 tons of HGV), although having something big behind you does tend to discourage drivers from pulling out...!

As DarlyB says sometimes the best observation, anticipation and planning won't save you, but over the years I've found it far more effective than just relying on the other driver to follow the Highway Code. As for your comment about the R1 rider you seem to be completely missing the point. That clip demonstrates what can happen if you don't leave yourself time to stop, or others time to see you. The rider wasn't even in sight when the car driver decided it was clear and they could pull out. You can't expect someone to give way to something that isn't there...

There's no point in arguing about the R1 clip IMO, he was too fast for the conditions.

Originally Posted by leedsmatt7

Doesnt matter 1 bit if he's as eagle eyed as a well, eagle! if something happens less than your braking distance then you'll hit it. I'd be interested how many accidents happen at roundabouts. Best junctions ever IMO safest by miles.

I actually have more issues with drivers on roundabouts that at junctions. If anyone can give me advice over an above what I already do it will be welcome, because I think it's probably because I am much better at handling junctions as it's easy to see where the risks are coming from, and not so good at roundabouts.

I try to avoid being alongside another vehicle on a roundabout, either on the inside or the outside. If following a car round, I'll stay off his rear flank, so that if he changes lane or cuts straight across the lanes, he cuts across the front of me, rather than into the side of me.

Sometimes on busy multi lane roundabouts that's impossible and you just have to take the correct lane and give the correct signals for the direction you are going in. The problem I see too often is other drivers who don't. The Birmingham ring road is a nightmare for this, with lots of multi-lane roundabouts and heavy traffic.

• Two lanes exiting a roundabout straight on onto a dual carriageway, I'm in the right lane, a car is in the left with all of the slow traffic and HGV's. The car on the left without indicating decides he's going to turn right, and carries on round the left lane of the roundabout, cutting off the exit onto lane 2 of the dual carriageway. faced with the side of his car, I either have to brake and pass behind him, or in extreme cases check mirrors, whack on right indicator, and go round an extra loop of the roundabout.
• On the left lane of a roundabout, going straight on. A car that was flanking me to the right, decides he's going left, you see him get closer in your peripheral vision. Either a burst of throttle and get out of the way, or whack on left indicator and go left as well before you get sideswiped.
• In the inside lane of the roundabout in any situation. A vehicle flanking you to the left, does not stick to his own lane and cuts the straightest line across the roundabout, squeezing you into the gutter of the centre island itself. Only way out of this one is brake or accelerate.

Now I do anticipate and expect these things, but because you are travelling round the roundabout at the same speed as these idiots who seem to think you are invisible, you often see them coming in your peripheral vision and have very little time to react, or make the necessary obs and signalling to make sure your avoidance manoeuvre is not just going to put you in a worse position.

I'd say the first two bullets happen maybe 4 times a year, the third bullet, way too regularly, once a month! Whereas having to brake very hard because of someone pulling out of junction happens 2 times a year. Like I say I'm better at handling junctions, and if somebody pulls out I'm usually braking hard, but not surprised, shaking my head and calling the driver a w*****r, long before there is reason to panic.

Originally Posted by Ed

but equally you can't expect riders with the clear right of way to crawl through a junction in case someone pulls out in front of you in violation of the give way markings.

Originally Posted by Red Herring

Ed, I guess it depends on how you define an emergency stop. In my book an emergency is an unforseen event that has dire consequences...

Even if one of them does move and you have to go for the brakes as well that shouldn't be an emergency, just hard braking

No riders shouldn't have to crawl through, but well in advance of a junction, and before there is any specific hazard in view, you should be loosing speed and thinking about what hazards could develop. Particularly if the road layout lends itself to a problem, for instance if you have a warning triangle for a junction, but you can't yet see the junction itself, then alarm bells should be ringing. If you approach and pass the junction and no hazards develop, great, carry on and get back up to speed. If a potential hazard develops, such as a car pulls up to a give-way line, drop a bit more speed (probably by now down to 40-50mph). What is the driver doing with his head, where is he looking? Adjust road position if you can do so safely to put the maximum distance between you and him if he moves, and put yourself in his line of sight. When his front wheel starts to turn get on the brakes hard. If you are 80-100 ft away you should stop in time no problem. If you are less than that stand your bike on it's nose, then start thinking about your road position vs your escape route. It's not likely that the car will pull out into the road, then stop there blocking it completely, you can usually swerve round the front of it or go behind it, releasing the brakes when the gap opens up. You should never be in a position where you are saying "he pulled right out in front of me, there was nothing I could do", if you are you've either had a completely freak unpredictable accident where a driver did something really stupid and unexpected (a ton of concrete fell out of the sky and blocked the road kind of scenario) or your advance planning was wrong.