Independence referendum..

Originally Posted by The Guru

Because the English colonised and took over other countries

Not in Scotlands case. Though Westminster may have become the centre of rule for both Scotland and England, Scotland was not colonised and taken over.

The origins on Union are quite the opposite in fact, Mary Queen of Scots was the first to advocate a union, James VI of Scotland was the first to put it firmly on the political agenda.

Charles I and Charles II also followed this up, but Oliver Cromwell conquered the lot for a while, and England was in civil war, and Scotland sat in republican union, but when Cromwell died this fell apart and Charles II returned to the throne from exile.

Eventually Scotland ended up flat broke through bad trade (google the Darien scheme) and it was primarily Scotland that sought Union with England to gain financial stability (funny that eh!? RBS/HBOS anyone?).

What was in it for England was that they secured control over the Scottish monarchy long term and prevented Scotland as a separate entity from choosing a different monarchy from the united monarchy that existed, it was a parliament of union to be run from Westminster, and they gained control over their fiercest opponent, who they had learned not to underestimate in the Scottish wars of Independance. Englands strategy was kind of 'keep your friends close, but your enemies closer'.

[TamSV]

Originally Posted by -Ralph-

Not in Scotlands case. Though Westminster may have become the centre of rule for both Scotland and England, Scotland was not colonised and taken over.

The origins on Union are quite the opposite in fact, Mary Queen of Scots was the first to advocate a union, James VI of Scotland was the first to put it firmly on the political agenda.

Charles I and Charles II also followed this up, but Oliver Cromwell conquered the lot for a while, and England was in civil war, and Scotland sat in republican union, but when Cromwell died this fell apart and Charles II returned to the throne from exile.

Eventually Scotland ended up flat broke through bad trade (google the Darien scheme) and it was primarily Scotland that sought Union with England to gain financial stability (funny that eh!? RBS/HBOS anyone?).

What was in it for England was that they secured control over the Scottish monarchy long term and prevented Scotland as a separate entity from choosing a different monarchy from the united monarchy that existed, it was a parliament of union to be run from Westminster, and they gained control over their fiercest opponent, who they had learned not to underestimate in the Scottish wars of Independance. Englands strategy was kind of 'keep your friends close, but your enemies closer'.

Nice summary there Ralph. I would add (well I would wouldn't I?) that the union was pretty violently opposed by most normal Scots. It was the lairds and commissioners in the Scottish Parliament who were looking to recover their Darien losses who pushed it through - and the pro-unionists duly received their bribe.

The Act of Settlement, Scotlands Act of Security and then Englands Alien Act (an embargo on the import of Scottish goods) are worth a google for anyone interested in the lead up to union.

Not that any of this is relevant to the future.

I agree that casting the English as the evil colonists doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Wherever the British Empire went, the Scots and English were side by side, bayonetting the natives.

Originally Posted by Messie

Why doesn't anyone ask if the English want to be independent of Scotland, or Wales or Northern Ireland, or any of the Commonwealth countries come to think of it?

Can't comment on the Welsh and Irish, but here in London, Scottish Independence it's quite the topic wherever I go. I'm asked about it all the time and I've not had a single English person say they want Scotland to break away. If anything there seems to be genuine concern that Scotland might break away. I've had a bit of fun pretending to be pro union with one group I know and pro independence with another. In both cases though they've said they want us to be in the union. I would pretend to be English but I can't do the feckin accent. That's just my experience but hardly scientific.

Originally Posted by -Ralph-

Stuff...

I know that. My post was in response to Messie saying why don't the English have a a say.

Originally Posted by Messie

Why doesn't anyone ask if the English want to be independent of Scotland, or Wales or Northern Ireland, or any of the Commonwealth countries come to think of it?

England can't (or at least shouldn't be able to) make that decision it should be down to the individual country to decide if they want independence. England took over lots of countries, some forcefully and some by mutual consent. The countries that are still part of the commonwealth or the Union should have the right to decide themselves.

[Blue Flame]

Originally Posted by stuartyboy

..... I've not had a single English person say they want Scotland to break away.

I agree. I am frequently down south and most of my working colleagues are from down south. I haven't had a single comment from anybody saying that.

There will always be exceptions of course. Kelvin MacKenzie springs to mind but he is just an erse.

[SoulKiss]

Originally Posted by Blue Flame

I agree. I am frequently down south and most of my working colleagues are from down south. I haven't had a single comment from anybody saying that.

Living in London I have never heard anyone commenting.

Originally Posted by Blue Flame

but he is just an erse.

Isn't it wonderful when your normal pronunciation of a word body-swerves the sweary-filter

[Blue Flame]

Originally Posted by SoulKiss

Isn't it wonderful when your normal pronunciation of a word body-swerves the sweary-filter

Git it Roon' ye yi baw bag

My my... so it does

Originally Posted by Blue Flame

Git it Roon' ye yi baw bag

My my... so it does

[STRAMASHER]

I can see where this thread is going.







Intae the gutter, ya tadgers!

Feckin bunch of bawsacks with yer breeks full of clag nuts and yer dome's full of pish so get it up yir hole ya barrel of pishy erse'd fuds.

Oh - so it does