Menezes health and safety hearing

Originally Posted by Ruffy

So do I - I expect those criminals who use weapons to use the alternative of being law abiding!

At the root of this is the moral fact that society seems to tolerate it's own members who choose to ignore the law and just expect the police service to deal with the fallout. Unfortunately, the general populus seems to have abdicated it's responsibilities because it finds them too hard to fulfil, yet it still expects the police to be 100% perfect in the face of increasing adversity.

I think we all need to break the cycle by supporting the police (as an organisation) in their business instead of complaining that they are intruding on our lives. At least then we would have some chance of being confident that a situation like the Menezes case doesn't re-occur. If we just point blame and find a scapegoat for this particular incident, will we see real change?

Personally, I am still many, many times more concerned about becoming a victim of criminal activity than a victim of police mistake. However tragic this incident, I am still happy to leave the police service to learn it's own lessons. I still believe that the fundamental aim of their operation was to prevent a terrorist attack and not just to assassinate an innocent individual. The operation was (very) flawed but they were trying to do the right thing. We all agree that they must do better next time.

What you're proposing is that we throw a fundamental principle of justice (innocence until proven guilty) out the window, which is unacceptable.

[Ruffy]

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

What you're proposing is that we throw a fundamental principle of justice (innocence until proven guilty) out the window, ...

No I'm not! I agree that to change the innocent until proven guilty concept would be unnacceptable.

What I would like is for a society where citizens accept that they have just as much responsibility as the police service for weeding out criminal elements. As part of that, we should be happy to accept some occasional inconvenience as the police attend to identifying and capturing the guilty and gathering the evidence to prove it. We also have to accept the unpleasant fact that there will be mistakes made by everyone involved in trying to preserve law & order.

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by The Basket

If she admits she is wrong then she is going to take the blame.

And so she should!!!! FFS this is where is all goes wrong. there is no accountability. if i make a mistake at my job which is only designing and selling things, then i have to put my hand up to it and explain myself to my boss.
This woman sits in court and wont admit to what is plain and simple for everyone to see. She should appolgise in public and step down. Admit mistakes were made and go gracefully. Give the family a sense of closure to this sorry episode.

Originally Posted by Ruffy

No I'm not! I agree that to change the innocent until proven guilty concept would be unnacceptable.....

We also have to accept the unpleasant fact that there will be mistakes made by everyone involved in trying to preserve law & order.

You arrest someone by mistake , it can be undone.... you just let them go.
You pump a bunch of bullets into an innocent mans head....errrm no way to reverse that is there?

theres mistakes and theres mistakes that should never have happened. If this case goes unpunished then these sort of mistakes can happen again and again.

Spiderman...if shes says it is wrong and I take the blame then she may get convicted and take the rap.

She covering her ass in time honoured tradition.

Originally Posted by Ruffy

If we just point blame and find a scapegoat for this particular incident, will we see real change?

How are we going to see change if no one if brought to justic, I still say that someone must have been in charge here and they are responsible. With command comes responisbilty and all that. If no one was in command then the boss of the met/ police should take responsibly for not introducting proper command structures. There dont have to be murder/manslaughter charages but someone should stand up and say sorry I f*cked up and at least lose there job.

If we chose to ignore it them there is a precident set in for future mistakes.

The police are very difficult to prosecute, mostley for good reason, like soliders, firemen etc they give a lot to society and should see something in return but someone has died here.

[21QUEST]

haha, love all this crap about "backing the Police, no matter what"...very funny indeed.

A simple question to all those saying the above(IMO) "with all the information that has come to light(some posted on here), if it were a member of your family would you still be saying the same?"

Seeing as I'm not a gambler, I'll put my money on what I'm sure is the winner ...... "I'm sure you all, would be singing a different tune".

Whole thing was a cluster feck, somebody sure fecked up and because of all the lies and cover up going on, they are in my opinion, a bunch of spineless CNUTS.....easy for me to say eh.


Ben

Originally Posted by The Basket

Just stating a fact. I am amazed that the idea that someone who has and uses cocaine is everyday.

Look...the Met did wrong. Someone deserves to be found at fault. But this is far more. This is about anti police views. And this is a stick to beat them with.

The police role is a thankless one and necessary. And I will support the police in general...although it is obvious in this case, a huge error of judgement happened.

absolutely right, but then i guess i'm not one of the human rights "touchy feely" brigade. at the end of the day a terible mistake was made but what if they had been right? would you still be saying the police were wrong. my brother was a firearms officer with kent police and as much as i hate the traffic police and scamera scum, the "real" police are the ones who have to deal with the sort of people who wouldnt think twice about hurting innocent people. lessons need to be learnt from this not just an anti police witch hunt.

[21QUEST]

It is said "the eyes only see what the brain allows it to see"

People are focusing on what they see(wrongly IMHO) to be people just "Police hating". In my opinion, folks are really not putting the blame on the guys who actually pulled the trigger.


Ben

[Biker Biggles]

Ive resisted the urge to comment too much on this issue cos we still dont really know enough about what actually happened,but a few things spring to mind for me.
Ive worked with the Met's armed units several times over the last ten years and the thing that always comes to the fore is the extreme caution they employ with their rules of engagement.As such ive never seen them open fire.They constantly work in fear of finding themselves on the wrong end of one of these investigations,so something was very different on the day in question.Either the shooters all had a collective brainstorm(unlikely)or the rules of engagement were different and the entire event was ordered from much higher up.
I believe that when these events originate at high level we will never be allowed to get to the bottom of it,and i feel very strongly that it is wrong to stick the blame down to the lowest common denominator,such as the individual footsoldiers who it is most expedient to hang out to dry.Those in higher positions always regard the rest of us as wholly expendable when the brown stuff hits the fan,and this affair stinks of brown stuff hitting fans.

[Spiderman]

Originally Posted by 21QUEST

It is said "the eyes only see what the brain allows it to see"

People are focusing on what they see(wrongly IMHO) to be people just "Police hating". In my opinion, folks are really not putting the blame on the guys who actually pulled the trigger.


Ben

Exactly right Ben.

Ive said it time amd time again but et me say it once more... I feel sorry for the guys who had to pull the triggers. They had a hell of a job to do and if they were really faced witha suicide bomber they would get all the prise i could give them.

My Point has always been that it was the surveillance and lack of clear ID of this poor man that led to his death. The commanders who gave the orders based them on very weak intel and for that only they can be held accountable.

Bear in mind also this is a HEALTH & SAFETY case now. The CRIMINAL prosecution has been and gone and noone was found guilty if any criminal wrongdoing.

Even more reason why this Cmndr D*ck needs to put her hands up and admit she made mistakes. She wont see the inside of a jail cell from the worong side of the bars ...in fact i'm sure she'd get a fat pension and golden handshake. But at least it'd show the force are big enough to put their hands up and take blame where its due.

But no they'll argue this to the end and extend their attitude of "if we even suspect you might be a "terrorist" the gloves are off, the rules go out the window and if we wanna shoot first and bugger asking questions at all, then we will. Cos we can and no one can hold us accountable"