I.A.M - How many younger riders consider advanced riding?

Originally Posted by Nutter

And you know this how? Do you honestly think that if anyone ever tells you how to do something better, they are 'training the thinking out of you'? What a bizzare comment.

As I stated above, I ride by instinct. I was using IPSGA before I was even aware of it's existance. I believe this is pretty much what Lozzo is getting at.

Personally, I'd rather not worry if I'm putting my bike in the position that someone else deems to be the correct one. Although I instinctively tend to do that anyway, I'd rather not be thinking "is my positioning right? where do I need to be?" - I'd rather go with the flow.

Granted, for most riders, in most situations, thinking though IPSGA no doubt helps.

IMO, getting people to think about IPSGA etc actually increases the risk of them doing something silly (assuming all other factors remain constant - in reality the ride would probably be slowed down) because you're having to think about so many more things.

Given time, the teachings of IPSGA probably do become instinct though.

Just not for everyone.

Originally Posted by Baph

That's a very good point actually.

I make no secret of the fact I'm a pretty high mileage rider (K6 bike currently on just short of 38k miles - and I ride more than just my bike).

However, in the past, other riders - even other .Orger's have asked for my opinion on their riding. I don't feel like I'm qualified enough to provide that feedback.

It takes both miles and years to be a good rider. Since I have started riding my bike, I've done almost 18,000 miles. In contrast, my dad - who has had his GSXR750 for the same amount of time that i've been riding - has done "only" 9000 miles.

Yet each and every time I go out with him, he shows me I still have a great amount to learn about machine control.

That being said, my dad's boss told me it would take 5000 miles to get somewhat comfortable with riding - he wasn't wrong. Whilst I'd like to do IAM, the cost puts me off and the high-and-mighty attitude of some of the riders puts me off...thats why I just want to go for a simple ride with someone who is IAM trained...you know, like you go out for a ride with your mates.

I try and learn something every time I go out and ride with other people. One of my freinds who has been riding only a little longer than me is a very gifted rider in machine control, I worked out alot about body positioning following him, and from my dad I learn't alot about road positioning (he tends to stick to the middle or outside of a bend...for ages I wuld hug the inside, which made me tense).

The annual rideout last year was a great eye-opener for me in terms of throttle control and how much I can sling the bike about.

BTW orgers, i'm open to any constructive critisism about my riding, so if you feel you can offer me some tips at this years annual rideout, then come over and have a chat. If i disagree, I wont do it, if i think its worth trying, i'll have a go.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Lozzo

So what makes you think I'd want to fork out £109 quid for some beardy-weirdy on a BMW to tell me that I already know how to ride?

I fully accept that you would have very little if anything to gain/learn. Remember the thread was started for younger riders That was what I was trying to say that you probably do most of what I was taught by IAM already. I don't think of it as riding to a system, it more a case of learning the system so that it comes instinctively so that you don't have to think about the system itself just think about riding.

Everyoine takes in information - it's not something special that IAM can teach you, it's something you have to do to pass your bike test. Everyone uses the appropriate gear - again, you have to know that to pass your bike test. Same goes for acceleration. Keep digging the IAM's grave for them, you're doing a good job.

OK so everyone adjusts their speed and their position, but do they know which order to do it in? I was observing an associate who came upon an oncoming vehicle so he slowed down and pulled out of it's way. It would have been much better for him to adjust his position first as the way he did it he slowed down so much that he wasn't moving fast enough to get out of the way. Before I did IAM I certainly didn't know how to position for say a bend - because you don't need to to for DAS. Lifting your vision that IAM has defineitely taught me, means I'm a world away from how I was without IAM (I would never look down my nose at anyone for not having done IAM but maybe if their riding was poor & they had no intentionof improving it)

You can't get my point at all. IAM trains you to do exactly what you should be doing instinctively. It fills your head with a system to follow "I must look in my mirror at this point" " I must do a shoulder check at this point" "I must position my bike at this point before entering this bend" etc. It's just more to think about and less to help riding become a pleasure. I don't live a regimented life, not many people do, so I can't be doing with systems when natural ability will suffer. There are times and places where the system does not work, not all bends are the same, not all junctions are the same. The IAM system doesn't allow for this

It quite simply does! It's all about priorities.

- I've watched them ride, and to be perfectly frank most of them are a feckin' liability on the roads. I quite enjoy hearing how there seems to be a 'bike down' incident on just about every IAM rideout I ever hear about. You don't find that on any other rideouts.

Just not my experience at all. Without wishing to point a finger and I hate doing this, but wasn't there a bike down at every single NW ride for example except the last one

A little while ago I had a discussion with an IAM observer about passing parked cars. Why did he feel the need to do a left shoulder check when pulling back in front of a parked car he'd just passed. He couldn't give me a reasonable explanation, only that he needed to see behind. The car is parked... it's going nowhere. You taking the time to do a shoulder check takes your eyes off the road in front for however long that shoulder check takes, and all for nothing, because the car you've just passed is parked, going nowhere, stopped. He mentioned that a child might run out from in front of the parked car. My response was "You should see the child beforehand if your forward observation is that good. Besides, if you're already past the car, what difference does it make if the child does run out behind you, you won't be hitting him". He still couldn't answer, but he did tell me that he'd been trained to do that shoulder check in his IAM training and he would continue to do so, and would continue to train others to do the same.

Not my experience at all - I'll ask on the IAM forum if this is wrong

Now that's the kind of stupidity and stubborn "holier than thou" attitude regarding the 'system' that I can't abide. Almost every IAM member I have ever encountered has had the same attiude, and it sucks in my opinion.



Keep it. I'd feel guilty about making so much so easily.

Gee thanks

[yorkie_chris]

I'm 20. Been riding since about 14. I have considered IAM.

I'm not fussed about the BMW 1200GS with the little green badges on it, like that tw4t who I keep having to do something silly to get past as he's allus in the way at 5.30 on the A58M filtering at 2mph. And you can keep the slippers.

But, it would be worth it for me if it would be economical on the insurance.

Originally Posted by Nutter

And you know this how? Do you honestly think that if anyone ever tells you how to do something better, they are 'training the thinking out of you'? What a bizzare comment.

Whether or not it is a better way of doing it is a matter of debate. It's not a bizarre comment, it's a statement on observations made over 30 years of riding.

I'm all for advanced rider training, but not the way the IAM teach it.

A quick question for Stu - How long have you been riding?

Originally Posted by Lozzo

I find it absolutely incredulous that someone like KitKat (no personal disrespect meant here) can pass DAS, join the IAM and do their training, and then move on swiftly to being an observer with almost no real world riding experience. A few thousand miles post-DAS does not make any rider good enough to be able to observe and instruct, no matter what training they've received..

no disrespect taken. I came across this a lot from guys joining the IAM. Few had been riding 20+ years and did not like being observed by me as I had only been riding 1 year (what could I tell them). I did point out that I was not saying I was a better rider than them but that I could advise them on aspects of their riding to help them to pass the IAM test. I could keep up with any one as on an assessed ride as you have to adhere to the speed limit. so max speed they would be doing is 70 and only 60 on back roads. Used to really annoy them when I kept up. IAM is not for everyone but for me it really helped my riding. I passed DAS after only 2 days on a 500cc and understandably could not ride. I was a qualified observer (ie passed my test, completed 50 observed rides 20 of which I was observed by senior observer, written paper and had an assessed ride myself with senior observer) for 2.5 years and covered 30000 miles during that time. I am still not the fastest (doesnt interest me) or most skilled rider out there but I have 8 years of accident free riding (well 7 as I have not ridden for a year) and feel confident riding to my own pace. Im not out to prove anything to anyone. If anyone feels they would like additional training then I feel the IAM is a good option.

Originally Posted by Lozzo

Now that's the kind of stupidity and stubborn "holier than thou" attitude regarding the 'system' that I can't abide. Almost every IAM member I have ever encountered has had the same attiude, and it sucks in my opinion.

I've done advanced training using the system and although I had to work hard before it became instinctive I believe it has got me to a standard which would have taken me years (of which I don't have that many left in biking terms) to get to the skill level I have now (which if I'm honest still has a long way to go). As you have been riding a long while as has my old man also - you have a definite advantage.

Personally I believe it is quite irresponsible to advocate that people do nothing other than rely on their own experiences to gain valuable knowledge, when they could take advantage and expedite their skills probably making them safer, more progressive riders.

My observer rode a Blade and Ive still yet to meet the pipe and slippers character

I'm also wondering who has the more 'holier than thou attitude'.

[Stu]

Originally Posted by Lozzo

A quick question for Stu - How long have you been riding?

Quick answer - 3 years

Originally Posted by Stu

Quick answer - 3 years

I rest my case.