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Old 30-04-18, 12:25 AM   #11
Talking Heads
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Default Re: The Crash Detectives - a sobering story

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Personally as an ex copper and an active motorcyclist I see people driving like complete idiots on a daily basis but I'm pragmatic enough about it to recognise that my responsibility now is towards myself and my family. Some may consider that selfish, tough, I've done my bit, now i just want to stay alive and getting involved in any kind of argy bargy against anything with more wheels than you is only going to end one way.
Me too.
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Old 30-04-18, 05:01 PM   #12
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Default Re: The Crash Detectives - a sobering story

The sentence is too lenient, especially when compared to that given to very high speed driving which results in no accident or death. Or compared to the poor soul who passed out and killed someone mentioned earlier in this thread.

Trying to explain/justify/understand it, by saying the biker might have given the finger is ridiculous. Yes, the finger may have annoyed the other driver, but come on, he has some serious responsibility driving a car, and he failed to honour that. Selfish pr!ck.

Our courts and justice system is a joke sometimes, this is just another example of it.

I too avoid confrontation at all costs, it never comes out well for anyone. The roads are not the place to bash your chest.

However, I will flick the finger when needed, making sure I am able to keep clear of any (pathetic) fallout.
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Old 30-04-18, 09:30 PM   #13
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Default Re: The Crash Detectives - a sobering story

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Trying to explain/justify/understand it, by saying the biker might have given the finger is ridiculous. Yes, the finger may have annoyed the other driver, but come on, he has some serious responsibility driving a car, and he failed to honour that. Selfish pr!ck.
If suggesting the biker may have done something to provoke the reaction from the driver is ridiculous perhaps you could offer your opinion as to what started the chain of events?
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Old 30-04-18, 10:51 PM   #14
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Default Re: The Crash Detectives - a sobering story

I don 't want to get too drawn into this but I have to say that I have overtaken drivers, mostly other men, who just do not like being overtaken by anyone, even if the manoeuvre was perfectly safe. I'm sure some of them see it as a slight on their masculinity.
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Old 01-05-18, 04:34 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Crash Detectives - a sobering story

Nobody knows for sure what started the chain of events, including the court, but whatever it was resulted in someone dying by the probably negligent actions of another.

It doesn't really matter what/who started it, does it?

I never said/meant that suggesting what started it was ridiculous, I meant that trying to defend/explain the low sentence or the drivers actions, by what started it was ridiculous.

It may well be the biker started it by flicking the finger, if so then why did he do that? Because the driver was lane hogging? Who started it then? We are not in the playgroud.......

Bikers are hated by the courts, both in my experience and looking at unfair judgements that are passed. Compare cases of excessive speed in cars with that on bikes, the biker usually comes off worse.

I used to think the Police hated bikers as well, and treated us unfairly because of it, but my experience has shown that generally not to be true, with the odd exception.....
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Old 01-05-18, 07:25 AM   #16
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Default Re: The Crash Detectives - a sobering story

This driver was poodling along the motorway at an average speed below 60. That's a fact from the investigation. It's not unreasonable to assume he would have been overtaken by numerous other vehicles, none of which appear to have been taken as a slight on his masculinity

The bike was averaging over 70mph, another fact from the investigation. At some point the bike has passed the car and immediately both of their speeds increase dramatically. That's another shown fact. I'm not trying to excuse or justify what then went on, just try to understand why it happened so that I can learn from it, fundamentally because I'm a selfish bugger and I wouldn't want to find myself in that situation.

The facts then show that both the bike and the car continued along the motorway close together for some distance at high speed. That didn't happen by accident, it happened as a direct result of a conscious decision by both parties involved, either of whom could have stopped it from happening in an instant.

Everything I have said so far is a fact, from here on we can start exploring theories about how people felt or what they were trying to do, but they will be just that, educated guesses.

My educated guess is that both persons involved lost their cool and did stupid things. After thirty years as a copper I'd like to think I know enough about human nature to understand how easily that happens, I've even been guilty of it myself. We don't know if the car driver became so incensed that he deliberately knocked the rider off (his history tends to suggest he wasn't a particularly level headed chap) if he misjudged the distance when trying to pass close to the bike, or they both swerved towards each other at the same time, but either way it all went tragically wrong for both of them.

No length of sentence will bring the biker back, or right the wrong done that day. We live in an age of social media where the news is regarded as entertainment rather than informative facts. Everything you read and hear has an agenda behind it (and no, I'm not a complete conspiracy freak) because they ether want to engage with you, or give you a particular message. As a population we are very good at reading what we want to see and then jumping on whichever part of a story happens to support the particular bandwagon that happens to be passing at the time. I have absolutely no doubt that everything I have just said would have come out in the court case, but the judge was very careful in his summing up, and the media in what they reported, because they knew that any inference that the biker had a part to play in events would have been turned against them, in much the same was as andy650 did with my original post.

The only good that can come from this entire sad affair is that folks could learn from it, unfortunately that kind of message isn't what people want to hear.
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Old 01-05-18, 07:36 AM   #17
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Default Re: The Crash Detectives - a sobering story

I dont think it was a low sentence given what could be proven in court. We know he had a history of petty crime and bullying behaviour and we know he was driving slowly then sped up around the time the biker passed him. We know they were in close proximity just before the crash and we know they collided and the biker died. We know the scrote didnt stop and lied about the incident later. All pretty damning stuff and it went to court and he was guilty as charged. What couldnt be proven was exactly what happened at the point of impact. We,me included, think we know what happened. We think he was the sort of ******** who deliberately used his car as a weapon and deliberately knocked the biker off. We think this is at best manslaughter and probably murder but none of that could be proven to the standard required by our justice system. Overall I think that was the right way to deal with it.
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Old 01-05-18, 08:40 AM   #18
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Default Re: The Crash Detectives - a sobering story

Personally I think the sentences handed down for causing death by dangerous driving are too lenient. The guidelines allow for up to 14 years, but often the sentence is half that. In cases where multiple fatalities occur, they can be convicted of several counts, given 7 years for each death but these usually are to run concurrently but can be stipulated to run consecutively so a more appropriate time is served. This never happens.

Some of the shorter stories on the crash detectives series show appalling driving and the driver is caught bang to rights (hence short story on the program), resulting in one or more deaths and the sentence is always less than 7 years. (Perhaps they have particularly weak judges in Gwent)
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Old 01-05-18, 09:45 AM   #19
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Default Re: The Crash Detectives - a sobering story

Easy to call for longer sentences for causing death by dangerous driving but I believe better enforcement is the answer most likely to work. We need to nip dangerous driving in the bud irrespective of the individual consequences of any given event. So aggressive behaviour,tailgating,inappropriate speed,racing others,jumping lights and similar attitudinal issues should be taken more seriously. Thats the way to prevent dangerous driving becoming fatal driving.
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Old 01-05-18, 09:50 AM   #20
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Default Re: The Crash Detectives - a sobering story

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Easy to call for longer sentences for causing death by dangerous driving but I believe better enforcement is the answer most likely to work. We need to nip dangerous driving in the bud irrespective of the individual consequences of any given event. So aggressive behaviour,tailgating,inappropriate speed,racing others,jumping lights and similar attitudinal issues should be taken more seriously. Thats the way to prevent dangerous driving becoming fatal driving.
Totally agree. IMHO more roads police are needed (and just more in general), but I also believe that the consequences of being caught should be significant. I know for a fact there are folks around here who DO drink and drive because there is practically no chance of them being caught.
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