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Old 07-04-19, 10:31 AM   #1
Seeker
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Default Boeing 737 Max

I didn't realise until these latest crashes that Boeing were allowed to self certify their own aircraft, the FAA trust them to be truthful.

When Boeing developed the Max it fitted new engines but these were bigger and heavier which required them to be mounted higher with heavier pylons and wing root. This altered the CofG making the aircraft less stable and so Boeing introduced new flight control software to compensate, unfortunately and tragically it had some bugs.

Allowing a corporation to self regulate seems a step in the wrong direction though (imho), generally corporations are not our friend.

I remember the Ford Pinto, an American model that could burst into flames if rear ended, Ford new this and documented the fact that it would be cheaper to pay off the surviving family members than redesign the vehicle. When the documents came to light, it didn't go well.
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Old 07-04-19, 02:39 PM   #2
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max

Allowing the fitment of stability control in a civil aircraft is absurd.
The airframe should be inherently stable and need no computer assistance to maintain normal flight.
Looks to me like Boeing doing things on the cheap.
They are among a number of companies who use legalised slave labour to do manufacturing in US prisons.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-pr...f-slavery/8289
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Old 07-04-19, 03:48 PM   #3
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max

Problem seems to be ( and anyone who watches air crash investigation documentaries will know this ) that modern pilots are reduced to computer minders, and if the auto systems turn off ( which they will do if they detect a sensor malfunctioning ) many do not know how to fly the plane, and sometimes the controls will not let them do certain things.

Seems in the Ethiopia crash something hit the anti stall sensor ( uses a pivoted vane to detect airflow over aircraft I believe ) and damaged it so auto system turned off, after that it was a fight between pilots trying to climb the plane and the stability control trying to get the nose down, and because of lack of altitude ( altitude is your friend if the plane has a problem ) they lost the battle with planes systems.

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Old 07-04-19, 04:11 PM   #4
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max

Saying that pilots don't know how to fly is just silly.
They all know how, but some are far better at it than others.

Stall warning/control sensors sense the angle at which air meets the airframe.
They usually have vanes projecting out from the aircraft either on the fuselage or on the leading edge of the wing.
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Old 07-04-19, 05:57 PM   #5
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talking Heads View Post
Saying that pilots don't know how to fly is just silly.
They all know how, but some are far better at it than others.

Stall warning/control sensors sense the angle at which air meets the airframe.
They usually have vanes projecting out from the aircraft either on the fuselage or on the leading edge of the wing.

I used to watch quite a few air crash documentaries and it turns out that a good number of planes that crash are perfectly airworthy but once the autopilot disconnects itself because it does not have all the inputs it needs then basic flying skills are sadly lacking... I went for a flying lesson a few years ago and the instructor was fairly young ( about 35 ) and although he was qualified to fly heavies he much preferred light planes and that is why he was teaching at a small airfield.
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Old 07-04-19, 07:07 PM   #6
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max

Boeing charged extra for two further sensors and these were not fitted to the aircraft in question: an angle of attack sensor and a "disagree" light if multiple sensors were saying different things.

MCAS (the new flight control software) switches on without pilot intervention when it thinks the aircraft is about to stall and takes a bit of effort to disengage. Boeing and/or regulators decided that pilots didn't need further training if they were already 737-800 trained and had a computer based program to watch to highlight differences. Pilots at United got to read a 13 page guide which didn't mention MCAS.
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Old 07-04-19, 10:13 PM   #7
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV650rules View Post
I used to watch quite a few air crash documentaries and it turns out that a good number of planes that crash are perfectly airworthy but once the autopilot disconnects itself because it does not have all the inputs it needs then basic flying skills are sadly lacking... I went for a flying lesson a few years ago and the instructor was fairly young ( about 35 ) and although he was qualified to fly heavies he much preferred light planes and that is why he was teaching at a small airfield.
If autopilot disconnects because of lost inputs the situation calls for VERY advanced skills.
(1000+ hours gliders & light aircraft)
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Old 07-04-19, 10:19 PM   #8
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
an angle of attack sensor and a "disagree" light if multiple sensors were saying different things
This is the nub of the problem, if instruments and control systems fail pilots struggle to know wtf is going on.
Instruments are essential in cloud and at night where there is no visual reference with the ground.
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Old 08-04-19, 09:58 AM   #9
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Default Re: Boeing 737 Max

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Originally Posted by Talking Heads View Post
This is the nub of the problem, if instruments and control systems fail pilots struggle to know wtf is going on.
Instruments are essential in cloud and at night where there is no visual reference with the ground.

There is something to be said for having an 'emergency' display of basic instruments for use when the complicated electronic stuff packs up so just airspeed, climb or dive and artificial horizon - from what I have seen once a small error occurs the crew can be overwhelmed by 'error' messages scrolling up the VDU screen and the real cause is hidden somewhere in them.

Some functions today can be driven by stuff not even on the aircraft, eg ground speed and altitude can be worked out from GPS satellite data. Every Rolls-Royce engine has contact with satellites and relay information back to Derby, sometimes Rolls Royce contact airline companies to tell them they have an engine problem before the crew knows anything is wrong..
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