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Old 23-07-20, 09:27 PM   #41
Adam Ef
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Default Re: 110 miles on MT09SP

People often think of suspension as something that is just there to absorb bumps by compressing, but it's actually very important that it can go down as well as up to maintain contact with the road. That's where what Bibio has mentioned (the negative sag) comes into play.
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Old 24-07-20, 05:30 AM   #42
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Default Re: 110 miles on MT09SP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bibio View Post
......
can you understand now?
To be brutally honest, no. Our experiences and views may well be different but that is not to say either is right or "better" but I've generally found trying to measure, let alone adjust, suspension on a bike without the rider sat on it is pretty much irrelevant. Sure, you don't want them on it when lifting to get a measurement for extension, but everything else needs the bike to be in the trim it's going to be ridden in, so unless you're worried about how it will handle after you're fallen off.........

I'll offer some evidence on that, both my TDR250 and my SV (ZX10 rear shock) pretty much top out without a rider on, and are both bikes that are built to go fast specifically on very bumpy roads...

I deliberately avoided using the term "static" sag as some people take that to mean unladen, whilst others see it as stationary (as in the suspension isn't moving). It's safer to think of sag as simply the amount the suspension compresses when no other forces are acting on it. The general accepted measurement for both front and rear sag for road use is around 30mm. This means there is enough extension in your suspension for it to cope with dips in the road surface whilst still leaving enough compression movement in most systems to deal with bumps.

Spring rates are important when trying to achieve this, but on most production bikes you can get close enough with stock set up to cope with most riders. The OP on his MT09SP is pretty much testing that theory to the extreme end as he's about as light as it gets on a bike that comes with a reputation for a stiff set up, but I think he can still get a whole lot closer with some perseverance than he appears to currently be.
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Old 24-07-20, 05:34 AM   #43
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Default Re: 110 miles on MT09SP

I think part of the issue is also Seeker comparing the experience of riding a bike that can cope with heavier riders (the MT09SP) to the SV, that most people find under sprung, but by some fluke he happens to actually be the perfect weight for.
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Old 24-07-20, 06:50 AM   #44
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Default Re: 110 miles on MT09SP

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Originally Posted by Adam Ef View Post
I think part of the issue is also Seeker comparing the experience of riding a bike that can cope with heavier riders (the MT09SP) to the SV, that most people find under sprung, but by some fluke he happens to actually be the perfect weight for.

It seems strange (to me) that something as important as setting the bike for the rider's size and weight is not part of the pre-delivery inspection on a new bike. I suppose we have only just around to offering different seats for shorter/taller riders so mustn't rush these things
Maybe bike specifications should declare the weight range that its adjustment will allow, outside of that range it will require modification.

All my life I've been fanatical about keeping my weight under control because I have a sweet tooth and, at 5'6, every doughnut shows. I never imagined being too light would be an issue.

Remember the "head versus heart" thread? I bought the Kawasaki H1F as a "heart" purchase and this MT09SP as a "head" purchase. What it shows is that I'm useless at picking out bikes.
(with the exception of the SV that is )
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Old 24-07-20, 07:11 AM   #45
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Default Re: 110 miles on MT09SP

I think you started this thread out of a frustration caused by your expectations of the bike compared to the reality of your experience owning and riding it.


I know that feeling. I've found that the more current a bike is, the easier it is to be bombarded by the "sizzle" (marketing, advertising and nowadays advertorial... sponsored Youtube reviews, (covertly paid) social media influencers etc.) The sizzle rarely lives up to reality on even the most amazing products as it's often got a lot of lifestyle and non-tangible things mixed in. The classic big example in recent years was the Ducati Scrambler. So little of the promotion was actually about the bike and nearly all about the lifestle... youth, freedom, fun. It sold well to a younger demographic and those wanting to feel younger. People maxed out on a bike they couldn't quite afford. Then when the reality kicked in and the first service or two came around a lot were sold very quickly when buyers realised the ownership (servicing etc) cost of what they'd bought into, vs not actually riding along beaches all the time in the sunset next to young girls also on Scramblers.


I'm not saying that is the situation you were expecting or that you bought it with head and lifestyle stuff in mind. But even the technical side of bikes can get inflated in the sales blurb. The SP is the special upgraded suspension version, so why isn't it perfect.. or near enough for you as it was sold as such?



I had a friend who worked in advertising and marketing and one of his biggest battles he always mentioned was trying to avoid "congnitive dissonance" in people they were selling products to post purchase. People can shun a whole brand forever because of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance


I've been in this situation a few times. One big one (coincidentally) being the Tracer I bought. I was blinded by the hype as it was a current bike with lots of buzz, videos and marketing around it. Not that it was a bad bike (it definitely wasn't.. amazing engine etc) and without the hype I probably would have been happier and accepted it for what it was. But I paid a fair bit for it and didn't forgive it's downfalls with the financial stress it put on me and the Youtube praise and advertising hype that it promised but didn't quite match up to.



Other bikes I've had that are older with no current hype and survive on reputation alone from other riders have always surprised and pleased me. I've also been a lot more accepting of any slight failings or quirks that they have (partly as they have been cheaper) but also they haven't set my expectations so high. The best examples include the VFR800 and yes, the wonderful SV650
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Last edited by Adam Ef; 24-07-20 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 24-07-20, 07:58 AM   #46
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Default Re: 110 miles on MT09SP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig380 View Post
Amen to that. Personally, I think I'm happier for having virtually zero adjustability on a bike's suspension.
Yup, my stock SV suspension is way better than I am, sum total of my suspension 'tuning' is to replace fork oil with 10 weight to soften the ride a bit. Stock suspension set up for highly variable roads rather than track racing is always gonna be a compromise 'jack of all trades'.

Years ago somebody asked me if they should get a British or Jap motorbike, I just said if you have an account with an oil company and AA Relay membership and enjoy being in your garage fixing bikes, get a Brit bike - but if you like trouble-free riding get a Jap one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
All my life I've been fanatical about keeping my weight under control because I have a sweet tooth and, at 5'6, every doughnut shows. I never imagined being too light would be an issue.
In a world of increasingly obese people the ones who watch their weight are becoming rarer - while waiting outside Tesco for my wife ( only one of us went into store at a time during lockdown ) I am shocked at the number of basically reaaaaaally fat people waddling along in the queue ( I would like to know if the 2 metre safe distance is measured from tip of nose or front of belly ) - your bike may have been designed for one of them, but I doubt any of them could lift a leg high enough to get on and off the bike...
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Last edited by SV650rules; 24-07-20 at 08:12 AM.
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Old 24-07-20, 08:06 AM   #47
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Default Re: 110 miles on MT09SP

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Originally Posted by Adam Ef View Post
The sizzle rarely lives up to reality on even the most amazing products as it's often got a lot of lifestyle and non-tangible things mixed in.
Hardly-Davidson and BMW are the two companies that spring to mind when talking about selling a lifestyle rather than a product... they have both done well out of it for a long time, who really wants their eyeballs shaken out by an unbalanced 45 eg V twin ? The advertising industry has a lot to answer for, there are lies, damn lies and then there is advertising....
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Old 24-07-20, 09:52 AM   #48
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Default Re: 110 miles on MT09SP

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Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
To be brutally honest, no. Our experiences and views may well be different.
fair doo's. all i will add is, if you put the rider on the bike and adjust the sag then take the rider off the bike and the suspension tops out then you have reduced the suspension travel due to the spring rate being wrong so the suspension might only travel say 20mm instead of 30mm for sag.

if the spring rate is too high for a rider then the suspension will not move through its stroke properly and move maybe a total of say 30mm in use instead of using the whole stroke.

if you set bike sag with the correct springs for the rider then you should not need to set rider sag, you can tweak it here or there but it should be correct. this is why we set bike sag first then check rider sag second to begin with to see if the spring rate is correct. if the spring rate is correct the first time round then we would not need to set rider sag as it should naturally fall within the specified range (combined range of bike sag and rider sag) for the rider.

but hey each to their own and all that.
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Old 24-07-20, 10:24 AM   #49
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Default Re: 110 miles on MT09SP

Quote:
Originally Posted by SV650rules View Post
Hardly-Davidson and BMW are the two companies that spring to mind when talking about selling a lifestyle rather than a product... they have both done well out of it for a long time, who really wants their eyeballs shaken out by an unbalanced 45 eg V twin ? The advertising industry has a lot to answer for, there are lies, damn lies and then there is advertising....
Lucky that HD finally caught onto the 'Vibration might not be a great idea' at last, the new softail frame is generations ahead on thier older stuff, but like the OP suspension is always an issue, for that read 'USD Forks' on some of the new HD's which work ok, well not too bad to be honest, right up till you find out they are just oil and springs, no cartridges at all (That's over a grand to fix in the future - maybe).

Sadly most manufacturers just build you a standard bike built for thier definition of an average human and know without doubt that it's owner is just going to change out the exhaust, probably the front and rear suspension, the seat and in the realms of HD's the Cam as well.

So why bother fitting the best they can, kit that's adjustable for everyone and costs 3 or 4 times the price which would in the end reduce potential profits when the owner will in all probability just junk it and fit thier own anyway?
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Old 24-07-20, 10:32 AM   #50
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Default Re: 110 miles on MT09SP

If you take a 200kg bike and fit it with spring that compresses 1mm for every 10kg, you will get 20mm of sag under just the weight of the bike alone, agreed? (And I know there are two, or even three springs supporting a bike, plus all the issues around rising rate linkages, but for the sake of simplicity lets save that until later....). Now add 100kg of rider and you arrive at your 30mm of desired sag.

Now take a 100k bike. If you want your 20mm of bike sag you need to fit a spring that compresses 2mm for each kg, but if you then add your 100kg rider you will end up with 40mm of sag....... so to get your 30mm of final sag you actually only have a spring that gives you 15mm of sag without a rider.

This is why "figures" don't necessarily work when you try and move them between different bikes with different riders......

It is also why it is far easier to just concentrate on getting the right sag with the bike and rider combined.

Last edited by Red Herring; 24-07-20 at 10:24 PM.
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