Gripe of the day - What is yours?

[Dave20046]

Time for a subject Change

BOILERS . Why are they so expensive. Hoping Dirtydog and others are watching this thread. Can't get a Wocestershushire. Baxi coming in at nearly 3k...are Valiant worth a look? (and are they cheaper?!)

[SV650rules]

Originally Posted by Dave20046

Time for a subject Change

BOILERS . Why are they so expensive. Hoping Dirtydog and others are watching this thread. Can't get a Wocestershushire. Baxi coming in at nearly 3k...are Valiant worth a look? (and are they cheaper?!)

We have a Vaillant system boiler with unvented hot water tank ( fitted by builders 23 years ago when they built the house ) had to have 3 new fans fitted ( builders fitted it with flue sloping back towards boiler, which meant condensed water continually dripping back into boiler onto top of heat exchanger case - flashing into steam and making the fan bearings go rusty - the bearings you can get from pretty much anywhere for about £5 but plastic fan is glued onto its shaft and you need to destroy it to remove it ) fans cost about £200, easy to fit though.

When I figured out what was happening I reversed the slope on the horizontal bit of flue to let the water drip outside - the fan is still running quiet so fingers crossed.

It also needed a new heat exchanger after about 12 years ( £400) and pump around same time ( about £200 ).

Been a good boiler and still going. In answer to your question the reason boilers are so expensive is that they are so complicated, and fragile compared to older boilers. By going from cast iron heat exchanger to oversized 'condensing' aluminium or stainless exchanger they upped the efficiency from about 65% to high 80%. Now we are in the era of diminishing returns, they have all kinds of feature like setback controls with external sensors to sense ambient temperature but the efficiency gains are small for a lot more cost. Main thing with condensing boilers is that the colder the return water the more efficient they are, which means oversized radiators to run at <60degC so return is less than 50degC, many condensing boilers are running too hot and the efficiency is lost. To get the most out of a condensing system boiler you need one that can run at two temperatures with the associated control, you need >70degC flow for the hot water tank heating and really as cool as possible for central heating ( underfloor heating running at about 40degC is ideal for max efficiency ).

I reckon the fragility of modern boilers and the cost to fix them wipes out any cost savings due to higher efficiency - give me a cast iron 70% efficient boiler that lasts 50 years without any attention any time.....

[Dave20046]

Originally Posted by SV650rules

We have a Vaillant system boiler with unvented hot water tank ( fitted by builders 23 years ago when they built the house ) had to have 3 new fans fitted ( builders fitted it with flue sloping back towards boiler, which meant condensed water continually dripping back into boiler onto top of heat exchanger case - flashing into steam and making the fan bearings go rusty - the bearings you can get from pretty much anywhere for about £5 but plastic fan is glued onto its shaft and you need to destroy it to remove it ) fans cost about £200, easy to fit though.

When I figured out what was happening I reversed the slope on the horizontal bit of flue to let the water drip outside - the fan is still running quiet so fingers crossed.

It also needed a new heat exchanger after about 12 years ( £400) and pump around same time ( about £200 ).

Been a good boiler and still going. In answer to your question the reason boilers are so expensive is that they are so complicated, and fragile compared to older boilers. By going from cast iron heat exchanger to oversized 'condensing' aluminium or stainless exchanger they upped the efficiency from about 65% to high 80%. Now we are in the era of diminishing returns, they have all kinds of feature like setback controls with external sensors to sense ambient temperature but the efficiency gains are small for a lot more cost. Main thing with condensing boilers is that the colder the return water the more efficient they are, which means oversized radiators to run at <60degC so return is less than 50degC, many condensing boilers are running too hot and the efficiency is lost. To get the most out of a condensing system boiler you need one that can run at two temperatures with the associated control, you need >70degC flow for the hot water tank heating and really as cool as possible for central heating ( underfloor heating running at about 40degC is ideal for max efficiency ).

I reckon the fragility of modern boilers and the cost to fix them wipes out any cost savings due to higher efficiency - give me a cast iron 70% efficient boiler that lasts 50 years without any attention any time.....

Thanks. I think a modern combi is a totally different kettle of fish to the older units - let alone changes in manufacturing processes.

Re. Value. Annoyingly I can get the Baxi online for about £900 but without a Baxi backed fitter your guarantee isn't there (unless I've been spun a line?!). Anoyingly I'm finding the baxi accreddited plumbers about £1000 more expensive than another gas-safe fitter.

[SV650rules]

Have you tried somewhere like BoxT or similar

Also look at this https://www.uswitch.com/boilers/guides/new-boiler-cost/

https://theboilercompany.com/our-ser...r-installation


https://www.boxt.co.uk/boilers?utm_c...&utm_term=boxt

[Dave20046]

No. Good shout, thanks. Better pricing than elsewhere but unfortunately will only price a Worcester - so more than I wanted to spend.

[svenrico]

'I reckon the fragility of modern boilers and the cost to fix them wipes out any cost savings due to higher efficiency - give me a cast iron 70% efficient boiler that lasts 50 years without any attention any time.....'
That is a very interesting comment. I am constantly, at least once a year anyway by the engineer who does the annual service, being advised to change my Glow worm Ultimate gas fired balanced flue boiler, which was installed when the house was built in 1997 and has worked without any problem (touch wood ) ,on grounds of efficiency. Other engineers have said it would have packed up by now if it had been a modern boiler !
British Gas provided a quotation of about £2300 for installing a new condensing boiler.

[svenrico]

Originally Posted by Dave20046

Thanks. I think a modern combi is a totally different kettle of fish to the older units - let alone changes in manufacturing processes.

Re. Value. Annoyingly I can get the Baxi online for about £900 but without a Baxi backed fitter your guarantee isn't there (unless I've been spun a line?!). Anoyingly I'm finding the baxi accreddited plumbers about £1000 more expensive than another gas-safe fitter.

Just pointing out that a combi boiler ,which doesn't require a cold water tank in the roof space, is a different thing to a condensing boiler.

[DJ123]

Have you spoken to British Gas? Sometimes their price can be reasonable and at least you'll have a good guarantee/warranty attached to it

[Dave20046]

Originally Posted by svenrico

Just pointing out that a combi boiler ,which doesn't require a cold water tank in the roof space, is a different thing to a condensing boiler.

I know, that's why I'm saying it's a different kettle of fish and there for hard to to compare a 30 year old non combi's reliability to that of a new combi when seeking recommendations. As much as I appreciated the recommendation.

Originally Posted by DJ123

Have you spoken to British Gas? Sometimes their price can be reasonable and at least you'll have a good guarantee/warranty attached to it

Cannot bring myself to do that, they ripped off my gran (8k for a rebadged Ideal boiler? which spent most of the first two years not operating until they finally gave up on warranty and had a local fitter out who found a problem with the installation) and took me to court over a gas supply billing error that was entirely their own fault.

[SV650rules]

British Gas have always been rip-off bar stewards, they are too top heavy and this shows in their pricing....They still do not realise they don't have a monopoly any more