Track day conflict.

I still think the etiquette in a fast group should be a bit more 'gloves off'*, you should have more confidence in your peers as they have been judged, or judged themselves that they have a fair bit of experience. ... presuming you have put yourself in the right group, you are obviously prepared to take/accept more risk as you are riding so much faster anyway (if the track was clear, presumably a fast group rider should lap quicker than an inters or novice … that person by the very nature of speed and what it takes to get it - is taking more risk!).

You are not prepared to take more risk then why are you in the fast group?

*Making people deter from their line or punting off is still unacceptable, running it tighter than a inters is not. It has only been recently (last trackday) have I heard 6ft given as a measure ... it had always been 'room' (or some other woolly term), I'd say 'room' in a fast group is not physically contacted, in an inters is a few foot, in a novice it is a bargepole!!

Oh and finally, 6 foot from where to where??? if both lent over, there is probably always going to be 6ft between the bottom of your wheels and the top of their head even if you were leaning on each other (or your head and their wheels depending on if up the inside or round the outside!).

[lukemillar]

Originally Posted by Blue_SV650S

It has only been recently (last trackday) have I heard 6ft given as a measure ... it had always been 'room' (or some other woolly term), I'd say 'room' in a fast group is not physically contacted, in an inters is a few foot, in a novice it is a bargepole!!

lol - Obviously been paying way too much attention to the girl riders in leather at the briefings than the guys running the event!

Pretty much everything single day I have been on, they have said 'at least 6ft'

Etiquette in the fast group should be the same as others. I have been in the fast group on 2 trackdays and each time found the same thing. People are way more predictable, which I found to be a good thing. I'm not a ballsy overtaker by any means, and would often brake early into a corner if I could hear someone stuffed up my chuff. I can tell who I am faster than and who is faster than me. As people have said...It's not racing

At the end of the day there are acceptable risks on any trackday but I'm not going to let my ego get in the way and risk having to cart my bike home in a van for the sake of a lap time or position in a corner, but maybe that's just me.

[G]

Originally Posted by Blue_SV650S

You are not prepared to take more risk then why are you in the fast group?

I dont know the biking track etiquette. But when in cars you go in the fast group because your fast.

There will ALWAYS be people faster than you though, that doesnt mean you should expect to be put at any more risk from others agressive riding.

Originally Posted by lukemillar

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I think you have hit the nail on the head - it’s the ‘predictability’ that allows for closer riding. Fast group is generally more predictable.

At the end of the day if 6ft is the law, then 6ft is the law, pretty simple* … I haven’t done many trackdays this year and indeed I have heard so many long winded briefings I do ‘switch off’ a bit these days, but I can’t remember 6ft being banded around much before, just ‘no close passes’ … ‘no stuffing up’ (or other woolly term).

*I’ll still interpret that 6ft in my own way (wheel to head) mind!! i.e. close as you like as by virtue of bike size, it will always be 6ft!!!!

Or I need to stop doing trackdays as the only way to pass on a SV650 in the fast group is the hard way … I actually like Silverstone as the track is so wide, you can do the hard way with lots of room for error …

Originally Posted by graemepaterson

I dont know the biking track etiquette. But when in cars you go in the fast group because your fast.

There will ALWAYS be people faster than you though, that doesnt mean you should expect to be put at any more risk from others agressive riding.

Its not aggressive, its assertive (we are no longer talking about the origin of this thread - that was bad form). You need to be more assertive at speed as the differentials are less for a starter, if the differentials are large, then you are in the wrong group ... Finally, you HAVE to be at higher risk at higher speeds as you are nearer the limit of grip and … well MV^2 ….

Ok so to summarise my thoughts - in the FAST group - If you don't accept the risk, don't do it. Novice group is a different kettle of fish and riders should treat each other with maximum respect as many people go barely faster than they would on the road, and why should they? Intermediate is a grey area and I would err on the side of caution. After all, where else would an inexperienced rider that's clearly too fast for the novice group go. But Advanced is exactly that: Advanced. Fast. Nutter. Whatever you want to call it.

Noone should expect to be punted off, but by the nature of the activity and the position you put yourself in by being in that group, you have to accept it is a possibility. Every trackday I've been on, there has been incidents; some isolated, some two or more bikes … law of averages says one day you may get tangled up in one, even if it was someone elses mistake!

Back to the fast group - experienced riders should also be capable of taking evasive action if someone comes under them. It's not hard to pick your bike up. It mucks your corner, but so what?

Trackdays are one of the last bastions where we can let our hair down on a bike (legally) … if we demand a nanny state, sooner or later we will get one. If going fast in a fast group is unacceptable to some - I think those that moan should **** or get off the pot ...

Originally Posted by Blue_SV650S

You are not prepared to take more risk then why are you in the fast group?

I'd say that's crap, I'm afraid!

You're most at risk when pushing your own limits, not the bikes. After all, you could be taking it easy in the fast group and still be less likely to crash than a newbie in the novice group trying too hard. Why if you're not pushing your limits should you be subject to greater risks just because you're fast?

Originally Posted by Flamin_Squirrel

I'd say that's crap, I'm afraid!

You're most at risk when pushing your own limits, not the bikes. After all, you could be taking it easy in the fast group and still be less likely to crash than a newbie in the novice group trying too hard. Why if you're not pushing your limits should you be subject to greater risks just because you're fast?

Physics!!

Think about it, how did this person become 'fast' in the first place??? What makes a person able to get faster and faster until they are 'fast with ease' ... attitude to risk perhaps?

You dump yourself in the fast group, you have to expect fast people to be in there ...

Finally, if you are capable of going faster and you are getting people thumping past you, then you either need to speed up so you are not in the way or get out of the group... if you are riding with ease and no one is coming past, then well, you don't have a problem do you!!

Originally Posted by Blue_SV650S

Ok so to summarise my thoughts - in the FAST group - If you don't accept the risk, don't do it.

this is the crux of it really. the risk is markedly different with people playing by the rules vs. not playing by the rules. I don't understand why you think that people should have to put up with the increased risk of people not observing the *safety* rules

Originally Posted by Blue_SV650S

But Advanced is exactly that: Advanced. Fast. Nutter. Whatever you want to call it.

Advanced - yes. Fast - yes. Nutter - no

Originally Posted by Blue_SV650S

Noone should expect to be punted off, but by the nature of the activity and the position you put yourself in by being in that group, you have to accept it is a possibility. Every trackday I've been on, there has been incidents; some isolated, some two or more bikes … law of averages says one day you may get tangled up in one, even if it was someone elses mistake!

that's fine. but with people not observing the rules then the law of averages starts getting weighted

Originally Posted by Blue_SV650S

Back to the fast group - experienced riders should also be capable of taking evasive action if someone comes under them. It's not hard to pick your bike up. It mucks your corner, but so what?

do you really think it's acceptable to stuff it under someone such that they have to pick their bike up?

Originally Posted by Blue_SV650S

Trackdays are one of the last bastions where we can let our hair down on a bike (legally) … if we demand a nanny state, sooner or later we will get one. If going fast in a fast group is unacceptable to some - I think those that moan should **** or get off the pot ...

you can stil have a good time within the rules. the rules are hardly 'nanny state' - they are risk-limiting to a certain level. if you find them limiting then go racing

I wish we could get an opinion from one of the trackday companies on this - I have an inkling which side they'd come down on

There is more risk even if you are playing by the rules …

Don’t put words into my mouth, I don’t think I said you shouldn’t play by the rules (and I do/try to (for my own good as I don't have faith in others!))?!?!

But matter of fact is that as things speed up, the room for error is less and chances of a misdemeanour turning out messy is greater … riders in a fast group need to accept that ...

Ask 10 people in beginners their perception of 'fast group', I bet 9 would say ‘full of nutters’.

I don’t think it is acceptable to stuff it under such that someone has to pick the bike up - NO (never said it was), will this happen from time to time when someone has made a misjudgement – yes! Do I accept this happens YES!! Do I think others should YES!!

I do play within the rules, but even within the rules there is still a fairly sizable possibility that something goes wrong!! My point is that people need to accept that or ‘get off the pot!!’.