Immigration

[Seeker]

Well, we've hammered climate change/renewable energy and covid in various threads, time we looked at the latest hot topic: immigration.

Cruella Patel has had 2 years or so to "fix" immigration and said recently it takes time. Since the same old plans keep cropping up which seem to be mainly to blame France, maybe a different approach is needed? What country would allow foreign police to patrol their shores - not one, so stop suggesting it BoZo. Why should France take the immigrants back? We aren't in the EU, so stop suggesting that too.

There is an interesting thread on reddit that was written by a Kurd on why immigrants want to come to the UK and not Germany.

https://old.reddit.com/r/unitedkingd...to_uk_and_not/

In a nutshell it says that Germany requires language proficiency and in the UK it's easy to join the black market and work without paying taxes.

Maybe we need to look at who is employing these people and/or introduce an ID system to make it harder to work illegally. It seems peculiar that we are complaining that there aren't enough workers when there's a steady stream wanting to come here and work. I guess it's the "take back control thing" which doesn't seem to working anyway.

[Bibio]

we are not in the EU so we dont have to let other members of the EU public work here.. if they want to work in the UK then they need to become a citizen.

the whole fiasco could have been sorted by creating a "workforce bulletin board" where every job in the EU was posted no matter the country, you would then apply to work where the job was and if successful you were granted a "visa". if you lost your job then back home to your country of origin.

the problem now is that we dont get help with welfare handouts that we did when a member of the EU.

close the doors.... simple. if you want in the UK you apply via the proper channels.

illegal immigrants if caught should be remanded without bail and returned to their country of origin. if they dont give their nationality then there are lots of islands off the west coast of Scotland that are teaming with midge that they can be put on... if the tables were turned they would do the same to us........ ever seen Turkish prisons..... the UK's are hotels compared to them.

[Biker Biggles]

Luvvittt!
You Scots are easily offended at the best of times and I hate to think what the response would be if the good folk of Kent decided to dump 25000 boat people on you.

[embee]

I make a prediction that it will be the same members who take the ant-immigrant stance as take the anti-covid/anti-climate change stance.

Putting aside any rights or wrongs of what is done, the way the UK/Britain/England views itself as the centre of the universe is interesting (and historically somewhat predictable). Essentially we only really have the Calais/Dover route as the UK's visible problem area for uncontrolled immigration.

The rest of Europe has tens of thousands of kms of borders across which immigrants can potentially and do pass. The other European countries are dealing with many times the number which eventually arrive at the UK. France specifically has many more immigrants entering the country, Germany also. The UK media talk as though France has only the coast at Calais to deal with and are failing miserably. I think they are dealing with a lot more, particularly at the south and east.

Ever since I've travelled across Europe, over 45yrs or so, it has been evident that in most other European countries the UK rarely features on the table of discussion, we simply aren't the big topic that our domestic media chatterers would like us to believe. It was true with Brexit and it is true with the business of migrants. They have enough of their own issues to deal with without bothering about the UK.
The headlines such as "French minister cancels meeting with Priti Patel in light of migrant crisis criticism" (Telegraph)
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...igrant-crisis/
would have us believe it was just the 2 countries involved and a direct slight by France towards the UK, whereas in reality it was a joint meeting with Germany, France, Netherlands, and Belgium to discuss the issues in their mutual region. The apparent duplicitous activity of Johnson in his private discussion with Macron and then the subsequent letter and social media post was enough to prompt the withdrawal of the invitation to the UK to attend. The others will still proceed with their discussions I imagine, the absence of the UK will no doubt be regrettable but not decisive.

Having decided to take back control and sovereignty, separating us from the EU, the UK has basically chosen to be on its own in dealing with arrivals, unless of course we can actually behave in a respectful manner and agree with other countries some mutually acceptable programme to address some of the concerns and events. No other country is duty bound to bow and scrape and obey the UK's demands, and the more belligerently we behave the less likely we will be in gaining agreement. Of course this actually is desirable for the UK government because it provides someone else to blame for their own failures.

I'm not sure what Bibio's point is regarding EU working visas etc is. The fundamental principle within the EU is freedom of movement of people, jobs, capital. I worked in EU countries and didn't need any sort of permission, I would not be able to do that now. The UK can do what it wants pretty much, including rewriting the rules regarding rights and freedoms of the individual.

There is also the usual conflation of "illegal immigrants" with "refugees" and "asylum seekers". We seem to want to deal with the issue by the "Catch22" clause, you can't apply for asylum if you enter by unregulated ("illegal"?) means, and you can't enter by regulated "legal" means unless you have been granted asylum. Sorted.
I don't think the rules say anyone is obliged to apply for asylum in the first safe country they enter, I'm sure others can clarify this chapter and verse, but that's another issue.

There is bound to be a full spectrum of opinions, from bring them all in to hang them all high. It would be nice if people could respect others views without reverting to vitriol, but I doubt that will happen based on social media practice.

[Seeker]

I think there is a deliberate Tory policy of antagonising the EU and especially France to distract from their own failures plus the continual need to appease the hard line Brexiteers within the party by showing Global Britain won't be pushed around (good grief). As an example of this is the French fishing licenses (in UK waters) - we insist that French fishermen prove that they were fishing previously by showing GPS records but small French boats don't have to that equipment installed so cannot prove it and thus don't get a license.

Priti Patel was a junior minister a few years ago when she was part of a meeting that was told that by cutting back the legal immigration/asylum routes it would increase the illegal attempts which is exactly what has happened. Now that she is Home Secretary all she does follow the same failed path and suggest more aggressive policies (transferring asylum seekers to far off islands or pushing the boats back). She's the hardliner that's trying to ban protest demonstrations and, as the daughter of immigrants, I would have thought she would have more empathy.

Apparently, it is easy for an illegal immigrant to enter the country and be absorbed into the ethnic community and begin working off the books. If we want to stop illegal immigration maybe investigating that would be a better place to begin. On the other hand, if these people are actually working it shows there is a need so produce an immigration system that offers a legal path for work or citizenship and thus take back control (!)

[SV650rules]

Originally Posted by Bibio

we are not in the EU so we dont have to let other members of the EU public work here.. if they want to work in the UK then they need to become a citizen.

the whole fiasco could have been sorted by creating a "workforce bulletin board" where every job in the EU was posted no matter the country, you would then apply to work where the job was and if successful you were granted a "visa". if you lost your job then back home to your country of origin.

the problem now is that we dont get help with welfare handouts that we did when a member of the EU..

Being as the UK was one of the few actual nett contributors to EU, and one of the biggest, that help with welfare handouts was just getting a bit of our own money back.. To allow anyone who turns up in a rubber boat ( provided by the French ) into the country is a real slap in the face for people who arrive through the proper channels ( not the English channel ).

[redtrummy]

For many English is a second language, that has got to be a great pull to come here. The more that integrate then that will encourage more and more to attempt to land here.
More people = more houses = less farm land = more reliance on imported food. In other words we will be more at the mercy of other countries. (What has just happened re gas supplies ? )

The tories have been promising to control immigration for years and have once again totally failed.
Some have predicted mass exodus from countries that will become inhabitable due to rising world temperatures, (with a mass immigration into Europe.) Its not a very optimistic look into the future is it.
I feel sorry for the future generations I really do.

[Bibio]

a lot of ethnic people came over here from places like Jamaica and India as they had a right due to having British passports. a lot of Europeans done the same with their passport. that was then but this is now. different circumstances and i'm not saying send all ex EU members home, just put a stop to more entering and from far off shores as well. in 20 years the population has grown by 10,000,000 thats about double the population of Scotland. as a side note Scotland's population is growing not from immigrants as such but English moving north.

the extra migrants are entitled to our welfare and health system without ever paying into it and people wonder why our NHS is swamped.

look at how other country's deal with unwanted immigrants and you will quickly realise just how soft the UK is. being a brit we cant even emigrate to ex colonies such as Canada without scrutinisation...... so why should we allow anyone else free reign to enter the UK.

[Bri w]

I am an immigrant here in Spain, and have been since before Brexit. To gain Residencia I had to prove income. And even though there is a Spanish Health system we didn’t/don’t qualify, and as part of Residencia we had to have health insurance. We don’t qualify for benefits, even though we pay tax here. And we have to carry ID.

All of the above was in place before Brexit.

I don’t blame immigrants for wanting to go to the U.K., I blame the soft touch, generous system that is in place.

[Bibio]

Originally Posted by Bri w

I am an immigrant here in Spain, and have been since before Brexit. To gain Residencia I had to prove income. And even though there is a Spanish Health system we didn’t/don’t qualify, and as part of Residencia we had to have health insurance. We don’t qualify for benefits, even though we pay tax here. And we have to carry ID.

All of the above was in place before Brexit.

I don’t blame immigrants for wanting to go to the U.K., I blame the soft touch, generous system that is in place.

when we all had EU passports all members were entitled to what their country of origin had with regards to healthcare and welfare. there were and i think still are people living in Spain and claiming UK benefits and if they need hospital treatment the UK Gov pay for it.

all it will take to break the non official migrant rule is for one of the former EU member to start getting uppity about Brits staying in their country and all hell will break loose.

i am truly thankful that my parents made the decision to come back home after emigrating to Rhodesia/South Africa.