The Covid19 thread

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by Bibio

but according to you i'm a moron for not taking the jab. i have never had a flu jab either. if i die tomorrow from covid then so be it, its been a good life. i do take precautions when out and about, you would be daft not to.

of course you're not a moron if there's a medical reason for you not taking the vaccine, quite the contrary because you've made a rational choice based on the risk factors.

The issue I have is with healthy people not taking the vaccine and then spouting the rubbish about 5G/Bill Gates/government control and end up in the overstretched NHS ICU. I just wish I could empathise with these people as they gasp their last breaths, but as Forest Gump said: "Stupid is, as stupid does".

This antivax syndrome is not new as shown in the link I posted but it's disappointing to see it so widespread, maybe it's a necessary cull.

Virus' mutate during transmission so reducing the replication rate is how it is eliminated/reduced. Allowing a significant number of unvaccinated people in society will allow a mutated, vaccine resistant strain to evolve which may affect us all.

...and I'm done. I'll try and work on my empathy and stopping calling them morons will be a good start.

[embee]

Some comments have been made regarding resistance and strategies etc for viruses and bacteria.
It should be noted that viruses and bacteria are very very different things, bacteria are way above viruses in the evolutionary tree. A virus is not really a "living" organism in the true sense, it doesn't have all the information and certainly not the real-estate to replicate by itself, the host does that bit for it. Bacteria are living things which reproduce by themselves, they just need the environment and nutrients. It's often the toxins they release which cause the illnesses.
Neither have any form of "strategy", only a modus operandi. Bacteria will have a variety of tolerance and resistance just like any other organism, not all people react the same to infections for example. If a bacterial infection is treated with anti-biotics the susceptible bacteria will succumb readily, the more resistant ones will survive longer. If the treatment is halted prematurely these will be the ones remaining and they will continue to replicate, hence the resistant strains will quickly become dominant. That's the importance of completing courses of anti-biotics.
Viruses can be stable, when replicating the genetic code will be repeated faithfully, and these are the ones which can potentially be eradicated (polio, smallpox etc) simply through persistence of treatments. Other viruses can be such that the code isn't reliably reproduced. It isn't a strategy, they aren't smart, it's just they way they are made up. Whether the host is vaccinated or not doesn't affect the tendency for these aberrations, it does affect the amount of viral load the host will end up with. The greater the load the more likely the host is to suffer from the effects. Vaccination just pre-empts the arrival of a viral infection so the body is primed to recognise it and react accordingly, in no way does it prevent infection and has never been promoted as such. The body's defence system does the heavy lifting, the vaccine provides the advance information.
As viral aberrations occur some will be more reliably replicated than others and will become the dominant version simply by probability, but other variants will still arise. If the variations involve the parts of the virus which the host has been "trained" to recognise and react to with defences then any previous exposure (vaccination/infection) may become irrelevant and the new variant isn't fought off until too late. This essentially is what we have seen with the Covid variants.
It doesn't really matter to the virus whether the host dies of the infection or not, if the virus is passed on before they die then it will be infectious and potentially become an epidemic. It's not a case of being an "advantage" to the virus, it just determines whether the virus spreads or not. If it does then it's more common, if it doesn't it peters out.
The world is full of bacteria and viruses, other organisms (us) have evolved along with them and either live with them or don't, just as plants either survive environments or don't. Our digestive system relies on bacteria, it doesn't work without them.
Vaccines are far less likely to be detrimental to us than the virus, the vaccines don't have the content which can replicate so the dose you get is defined. They just have the relevant signal elements which the body can recognise as an invader, the different vaccine types are essentially just different vehicles for delivering the information (4 types https://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/th...-how-they-work ).
I can't help feeling it is a lack of understanding behind much of the reluctance to accept vaccinations, though there is a difference between lack of understanding and active denial. Historically there have certainly been bad moves in medicine/pharmacy, but we move on and understand things better and there is more transparency.
Arguments for "natural" immunity strategies means that everyone has to be exposed to the infection and thus the disease, and many will die of the disease. Not many will die of the vaccine. There have been arguments that natural immunity is somehow "better" than vaccines. The reasoning I've read in favour of vaccines is that a vaccine will prompt the body with recognising the point at which the virus enters the cell (spike protein) so will react at that point, natural infection results in all the stuff going on inside the cell and the body reacting to that, i.e. the disease has already started, a bit like the difference between bailing out the boat and plugging the hole, better to recognise the hole and deal with that than wait till you are knee deep in water and then reaching for the buckets.
I'm sure many folk who are reluctant/refuse to take the vaccines will put all manner of proven undesirable stuff into their bodies, from e-numbers to cigarette smoke.
Entrenched views will not be changed, the more one side tries to rationalise their argument the deeper the other side will dig their heels in.

[SV650rules]

Pathogens that are too virulent die out, like Black death did. If a pathogen kills its host it is creating a dead end ( LOL ) for itself by severely limiting its spread, the common cold is still around and thriving because it does not kill its host, but allows its host to freely move around, thus spreading itself around. Over 75% of covid deaths have been in patients over 75, with 95% over 60 and with multiple ( 2 or more ) existing chronic serious health condiditions. Average age of a covid death 83.... This virus is not a killer of healthy people, or young people ( <50 ) it is a killer of already seriously ill older people. Figures from ONS data.

[Biker Biggles]

One thing I have learned over my 60+ years is that you cant fix stupid so little point in trying. But just one thought about statistics------The covid jab will not prevent 100% of covid illness and deaths. If we jabbed 100% of our population some would still require hospital/ITU treatment and some would still die. 100% of those who died would have been jabbed. The stupid among us might then claim the vaccine was dangerous because everyone who died had taken it.

[embee]

Originally Posted by SV650rules

Pathogens that are too virulent die out, like Black death did. If a pathogen kills its host it is creating a dead end ( LOL ) for itself by severely limiting its spread, the common cold is still around and thriving because it does not kill its host, but allows its host to freely move around, thus spreading itself around. ........

I'm still not sure what your point is?

(the Black Death didn't actually die out, and people took many measures to try to deal with it back in the 14th century, but that's another story..... https://www.history.com/topics/middle-ages/black-death )

[SV650rules]

My point is that with or without vaccines the most virulent form of a virus will die out fairly quickly, leaving the more benign variants ( the ones that do not kill ). Where is the Black death today then, if it didn't die out ?

[Kenzie]

The plague makes regular appearances even today. Google it, you will see.

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

[embee]

Originally Posted by SV650rules

My point is that with or without vaccines the most virulent form of a virus will die out fairly quickly, leaving the more benign variants ( the ones that do not kill ). ......

In principle you are probably right, but the reality is that over 5 years or so the Black Death killed a third of the population of Europe. I'm not sure that's an acceptable approach in today's society. Maybe it is?

[Bibio]

the plague is a biological pathogen where covid is a viral pathogen. completely different beats. we can by and large treat biological with penicillin where viral has no real treatment.

[svenrico]

Originally Posted by Bibio

its all blown out of proportion by the media and the only real way to tell if hospital beds are taken up with people dying of covid is to actually go to there and find out. not to listen or read that they are.

Not a good idea ! (for obvious reasons )