Advanced riding – braking

Originally Posted by MiniMatt

Yep, I think it's definitely a case of taking things either from a race or a road position. A pro race rider is arguably infinitely better at controlling their machine than an IAM instructor. Yet the IAM instructor is more likely to get home in one piece. Who's the better rider? The race rider may say that braking into the corner is fine, it gets me through the corner quicker and that way I win races. The IAM instructor will say you shouldn't brake into a corner as you're using up traction that could otherwise be used for turning and you leave yourself no safety margin for rabbit/gravel based emergencies. Who's right?

The answer to both question is "both" and "neither".

PS. Note I used the phrase "pro race rider". I've no problem agreeing with the principle that a lot of IAM instructors would whup most weekend warriors on a track day, but put them against any professional racer and they'd surely be lapped shortly after me

I like this explanation. I like it a lot. Braking into corners is a race activity. Advanced riding has nothing to do with racing. In an ideal world an advanced rider should never need to brake round corners. Their observation skills would have already assessed the situation and they would have completed the required braking before reaching the corner.

Originally Posted by BigApe

I like this explanation. I like it a lot. Braking into corners is a race activity. Advanced riding has nothing to do with racing. In an ideal world an advanced rider should never need to brake round corners. Their observation skills would have already assessed the situation and they would have completed the required braking before reaching the corner.

But don't you think the categorical "only ever in a straight line" makes it something that is actually hard to apply to real roads? I can think of a few corners local to me that you would need to slow to a very low speed prior to, despite them being very gentle and then tightening towards the exit, or double apex corners with a gentle first part, and tight second part, or a long gentle corner to the right approaching a tight left, for example. I agree that advanced riding may not have anything to do with racing, but I was always under the impression that part of the reason behind IAM is to improve speed and control on the road. Maybe this rule does that in a way, or at least reduces the risks, but I think that by following it you wouldn't be improving your level of control, merely refusing to challenge it (if you see what I mean).

Advanced driving/riding is based on the Police system of car/bike control called IPSGA

INFORMATION

POSITION

SPEED

GEAR

ACCLERATION

You are meant to use your forward obs and planning as you approach a corner, and look at your limit point. If it's a right hander then take up a position in the left hand third of your lane, left hander get out almost as far as the white line down the cente of the road. (this gives you the greatest vision around the corner)

Your speed should match the speed of the limit point, ie if it's closing in your going to fast etc, and you trade off speed until the limit point moves at the speed of your bike, if you need to brake then that's when you do it.

Once you've got your speed right and travelling at the speed you need for the corner then you select the gear that you want to travel the corner and accelerate out of.

Tip the bike in and hold the throttle constant.

Once the limit points moves away from you then give it some more right wrist, BUT, you should also use your forward obs and planning to be scanning ahead for the next hazard. No good going round bend in 4th, at about 6,000 revs than nail it to the red line if the next corner is only 100yds away, then you would be under heavy braking, not a smooth ride at all, absolutley no forward observation and planning. % of crash risk - V. high.

I use this all the time when I'm out, it means I can have a hoon, but get home with all my little arms and legs in the places I left them the last time.

When you approach a junction or side road that is located around a bend then you have to brake whilst cornering. You can't slow down to 10mph then go round the bend at that speed. Never had a problem braking whilst cornering. It is a basic skill I learned whilst riding motorcross bikes at age 7. Any half decent rider should have a feel for how much they can brake whilst leaned over and which brake to use the most etc.

I have to say that most of the stuff I hear from IAM and advanced riding literature is just the biggest load of patronising nonsense going. They should stay at home with their pipe and slippers and stay away from bikes.

Ok, yes to clarify, my shock is that I see this as the most BASIC way to go about business!!! Grabbing large handfuls mid corner is a no-no, sure, but braking into the corner, (ultimately all the way to the apex) is surely the way forward? Even for road ‘progressive’ riding??? …

After reading this last night, I actually tried only braking whilst upright today, not only was it difficult to find times when I was 100% upright for any period, I ended up going painfully slowly beacuse of this very fact (i.e. I had no points I could brake (upright), so had to go real slow), I was making no marked ‘progress’ at all. Sure ‘safe’ as I was only going slow, but ‘progress’ …no …

I agree head down all the way to the apex might be a little OTT for road riding, but to dismiss any dragging the brakes into a corner … I don’t see that as advanced …

[mister c]

This is actually covered in the CBT. We always tell our students to brake before coming into a bend & not in the bend itself.

Originally Posted by mister c

This is actually covered in the CBT. We always tell our students to brake before coming into a bend & not in the bend itself.

Indeed, so at the most basic level its a good idea - start simple ... but ADVANCED (presumably AIM etc) riding technique? You ain’t going anywhere ‘progressively' like that

[fizzwheel]

I trail the front brake into a bend now and again on the road on the GSXR, It felt really odd at first, but now I think I do it a lot more than I think I do.

I find I switch riding styles between the SV and the GSXR and I just dont have the confidence in the SV front end to do it.

I guess its a kinda useful skill and its just another tool in the box to get you out of trouble, but it might also land me in trouble at the same time. I'd defo not do it on the SV though.

Originally Posted by fizzwheel

...

If you naturally do it on the GIXER, I can't see how you don't do it AT ALL on the SV? Sure, you won't be wanting to go as deep/hard in on the SV as the GIXER, but not at all???

Originally Posted by Blue_SV650S

Ok, yes to clarify, my shock is that I see this as the most BASIC way to go about business!!! Grabbing large handfuls mid corner is a no-no, sure, but braking into the corner, (ultimately all the way to the apex) is surely the way forward? Even for road ‘progressive’ riding??? …

I sometimes think that you forget just what an advanced/fast rider you are Nick. I think most people have had it drummed into them that using the front brake when not upright will have them on their arses quicker than you can say a very quick thing

I definitely think that braking into an corner is a part of smooth progressive riding - having to be off the brakes & have the bike settled before turning in reduces the fluidity of riding for me. I do moderate it if conditions are not optimum - especially if it's wet/slippery/bumpy. I find that turning in on the brakes helps the bike to turn & progressively releasing them into the apex makes for a much smoother corner entry than the alternative