IP snooping powers... Am I missing something?

Once more I seek the wisdom of the org.

It's been a while since I worked in IT so my knowledge is most likely a bit out of date. This much touted new power to identify a computer user by collecting their IP address... I don't see how it will work.

Yes every device has a unique network address on its local network, I get that but once traffic is routed out over the Internet, isn't it the local router's IP that is seen? Or is it that the originator's local IP address can be found several layers down within the routed data package?

What about leased local IP addresses changing or IP spoofing or onion routing? Can they remotely identify the MAC address, that could be more helpful? Is there a more sinister reason for the proliferation of front facing cameras on everything from monitors and laptops to smartphones in recent years?

At best I can see a lot of low level risks being flagged up (ooooooo... We see Nick762 once downloaded the blueprints for a Sten gun, better get the SAS to break his windows ) but somehow I can't see your serious terrorist or criminal being so obligingly transparent.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-30166477

Even the MAC address isn't that helpful as though it's stored on the device, it has to be read by the driver and used in communication. It only takes an ifconfig to change it in Linux.

The idea is that when the IP address is assigned over DHCP the ISP will keep a record of who it was assigned to. This will identify which house it was coming from, though not who in that house, nor indeed whether it actually came from someone physically in that house (perhaps over wifi from outside) or from another computer on the internet (e.g. Tor).

I'd have thought any lawyer should be able to construct a reasonable defence based on those uncertainties but I'm not an expert.

[keith_d]

The problem this is supposed to address is that a mobile device can have dozens of different IP addresses during one day, depending on which phone cells it joins. In addition each of those IP addresses will be re-used hundreds of times each week by different phones.

So without data from the phone companies it's impossible to reliably determine which mobile device a particular request originated from. At the moment phone companies have no reason to keep that information. Unfortunately, with the advent of TOR and encrypted VPN links this is really just p***ing into wind.

The only use I can see is for 'Parallel Construction' of evidence, where plod is handed a case made up of inadmissible evidence and needs to find some "genuine" evidence which will stand up in court. So he requests IP information about phone #0712 3456789 and ties it up to web requests made from that phone to www.bombmakers.com

In short, it looks like if this sort of scheme were to be implemented they would be so overwhelmed by data that sorting the wheat from the chaff would be a monumental task. Live monitoring would (at present) be impractical but as Keith suggests, it could, retrospectively, be used as background evidence. Not really the panacea that the Home Secretary is touting, merely doing something in order to be seen to be doing something.

Pretty much what I thought, didn't think I was that out of date.

Only cautionary note I can think of is that back in the 80s/90s, they said that the Strategic Defence Initiative would never work as no computer could reliably process the seven or so million lines of code in the software necessary to make it work. Today I believe that your bog standard desktop PC handles way more than that just running Windows 7! It may not be that long before real time monitoring of IP activity is a reality. Add to that the ability to remotely hack into your webcam....

[ophic]

A law forcing firms to hand details to police identifying who was using a computer or mobile phone at a given time is to be outlined by Theresa May.

Someone's got confused already. You can identify the computer or mobile device by various means including IP.

You can't tell who's using it.

[Red Herring]

Originally Posted by ophic

Someone's got confused already. You can identify the computer or mobile device by various means including IP.

You can't tell who's using it.

I know nothing about computers...so feel free to shoot me down.

Is it possible for certain websites to be set-up so that as soon as someone goes onto it their computer can be told to use the forward facing camera to take an image of the operator and this can be recorded along with the Ip address?

This way even if someone uses an internet cafe they can be tracked.

Originally Posted by Red Herring

I know nothing about computers...so feel free to shoot me down.

Is it possible for certain websites to be set-up so that as soon as someone goes onto it their computer can be told to use the forward facing camera to take an image of the operator and this can be recorded along with the Ip address?

This way even if someone uses an internet cafe they can be tracked.

yes and no.

It's certainly possible but it would take a bit more than just going on a website, they'd essentially have to load a trojan onto your computer.

Given the current stance on cookies I suspect it would be illegal (without consent) and so not much use as evidence.

An internet cafe could of course set it up so the webcam recorded all the time but then they could (and presumably do) just require ID.

[ophic]

Quite possible but then anyone with any knowledge and also up to something naughty would just (cover up|unplug|point somewhere else) the front facing camera.

You'd have to trust the trojan as photos can easily be manipulated and exif data can be changed at the drop of a hat.

The IP is the best you can hope for, and from that you can usually identify the location and owner, and maybe even the username if you're analysing web traffic and get lucky. A careful user will encrypt their traffic and use a proxy so it becomes damn near impossible. This requires a bit more know how than just putting your thumb over the camera!

So you can normally get the computer involved, but not the person using it. Even if you did get both of these because they're stupid, you'd still have to prove that the computer wasn't being used maliciously by some trojan software, and by using a trojan to get this information in the first place... you're looking at very dodgy grounds.

Of course someone could simply buy a second hand payG sim and phone and set up new accounts that don't link to themselves in any way shape or form.

[BanannaMan]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

I know nothing about computers...so feel free to shoot me down.

OK!!!


Sorry, never tell a yank to feel free to shoot anything.