Risky business?

[Seeker]

Originally Posted by DJ123

I think i have probably not represented what i meant to say in the best manner. Let me try and find the speech that was made, as it was not about the Elderly being expendable.

I will clarify, that i'm not for letting anyone die unnecessarily regardless of age or any other factors.

if it was this speech:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ths-equal.html

He seemed to be saying that "some" (unspecified) older people had said they wanted to prioritise the young over themselves. Since it was Sir Charles Walker, a Conservative, I'd need to see evidence of what he claimed since he was using it as an argument against covid lockdowns.

As I wrote to my MP (who is 70), my problems with the Conservatives is that they see everything and everyone fitted with a price tag. As you join the older demographic your value diminishes (in the politician's eyes) until it comes time to vote. It seems to me that the only people left with any money are older people and they should be encouraged to spend, spend spend. I'm 65 and I'm following this mantra.

[DJ123]

Originally Posted by Seeker

if it was this speech:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ths-equal.html

He seemed to be saying that "some" (unspecified) older people had said they wanted to prioritise the young over themselves. Since it was Sir Charles Walker, a Conservative, I'd need to see evidence of what he claimed since he was using it as an argument against covid lockdowns.

As I wrote to my MP (who is 70), my problems with the Conservatives is that they see everything and everyone fitted with a price tag. As you join the older demographic your value diminishes (in the politician's eyes) until it comes time to vote. It seems to me that the only people left with any money are older people and they should be encouraged to spend, spend spend. I'm 65 and I'm following this mantra.

That is the speech.

I too would have liked to seen something to back this up, but you can't expect a Politician to have actual evidence . . . .

Most people have worked hard for their money and should enjoy it in the way they see fit.

[embee]

Originally Posted by Red Herring

......
I don't know if you've read the last BMJ? Interesting comments in there from some doctors involved in briefing the media on medical matters.........

I only look occasionally out of curiosity when searching for general info. There's a good article which shows some of the limitations of data/information being published and the ways in which stuff gets "dumbed down" either intentionally or simply for convenience here https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/04...-the-raw-data/
Statistics eh?
I'll have to remember to check online every night to see what the next day's rules are going to be. Nice to know the folk in control really know what they're doing and have a strategy.

Edit - just read this BMJ article on the delay between vaccine doses. The authors listed at the end of the article probably have a reasonable clue as to what they are talking about, I would have thought. https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2021/01/05...-second-doses/
In summary they suggest the AZ version type has some background which would suggest probable efficacy even with extended interval between doses, the Pfizer/Moderna type doesn't have supporting background data because of the absence of previous use of this mRNA type of vaccine and the acceptability of the delay is based on assumptions not evidence. Go Matt Hancock ......

[SV650rules]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52308783

Couple of comments from the article below, I know from other sources that the average age of a victim is over 82, and typically suffering with 2 or more other life limiting conditions ( example heart disease, dementia, breathing problems, obesity, diabetes ).


Nick Stripe, head of health analysis at the ONS, said understanding what the deaths from coronavirus meant was "difficult and challenging".
He pointed out the risk of dying from heart disease and strokes had fallen, which could suggest they were dying from coronavirus instead of other things.


"Coronavirus is doing more than taking the place of other causes of death for people who would otherwise have died this month," he said.
"It has driven the total number of deaths higher than expected.
"People like these, with multiple health conditions, do have lower life expectancy, but these figures don't say exactly how many months or years coronavirus has taken off their life."

[DJ123]

Originally Posted by SV650rules

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52308783

Couple of comments from the article below, I know from other sources that the average age of a victim is over 82, and typically suffering with 2 or more other life limiting conditions ( example heart disease, dementia, breathing problems, obesity, diabetes ).


Nick Stripe, head of health analysis at the ONS, said understanding what the deaths from coronavirus meant was "difficult and challenging".
He pointed out the risk of dying from heart disease and strokes had fallen, which could suggest they were dying from coronavirus instead of other things.


"Coronavirus is doing more than taking the place of other causes of death for people who would otherwise have died this month," he said.
"It has driven the total number of deaths higher than expected.
"People like these, with multiple health conditions, do have lower life expectancy, but these figures don't say exactly how many months or years coronavirus has taken off their life."

And that is the blurred line of the Covid deaths. Are these people who simply succumbed to it rather than their existing condition a little earlier, a 'real' Covid death (which you could say is one without complication of other issues).

I need to review the daily numbers again and see what the actual number is, vs where it is mentioned on the DC.

The 'daily' infection rate is also BS, as it is a rolling number of tests over the last 7-10 days IIRC. It is more of a cumulative number.

[SV650rules]

The government is counting anyone who died and has been within 5 miles of a virus in last month as a covid death. This may well suit their purpose ( whatever that is ) .... I guess some deaths have been slightly hastened and may be some postponed till 2021 and beyond due to lack of diagnosis and treatment for pretty much everything but covid in past 9 months or so. As the head of health statistics at ONS said, sorting pure covid deaths from everything else is difficult and challenging, it is not clear cut by any means..

[embee]

Originally Posted by DJ123

.......The 'daily' infection rate is also BS, as it is a rolling number of tests over the last 7-10 days IIRC. It is more of a cumulative number.

The numbers given on the TV news reports are both actual daily recorded values and also a rolling 7 day average value. The rolling average is required to even out the big swings between weekdays and weekends reporting (for some reason the recording systems still appear to work differently at weekends, maybe the virus has days off?).

[DJ123]

Yes, Covid has breaks too. Its Unionised . . . . . that's why Pubs used to shut at 10PM as Covid works night shift.

The daily numbers aren't accurate in they are preliminary prior to an Autopsy and the actual COD being released, as far as i'm aware. That's why the ONS figures have the death from Covid & Covid mentioned on DC statistics split.

[Biker Biggles]

Its easy to criticise the figures but when you look at all the numbers such as hospital admissions and deaths in conjunction with positive tests they seem to tally up to something very close to accurate. They also tally up when looking at retrospective figures which were easy to criticise at the time they were produced. Then there is the anecdotal evidence. I live about a mile away from one of the London hospitals at the epicentre of it all just now and there is no doubt in my mind when I talk to people I know on the front line or I see the 10 or 12 ambulances waiting to unload their cargos. Then there's the people I and my family know or knew who have died -------Some of them were nowhere near 82 either.

[svenrico]

Originally Posted by Biker Biggles

Agreed!
When we start to think of any section of society as vaguely expendable we sail very close to a very nasty philosophy. Best resisted before it becomes acceptable.

Exactly.
What we have to do is 'protect' the NHS by trying to control the spread of the virus to avoid a situation where hospitals are overwhelmed by Covid cases and doctors have to make to decisions on who can live and who has to die.
I have now read that speech and won't comment any further.