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Old 03-10-18, 11:23 AM   #21
SV650rules
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Default Re: K5 Pointy Headlight Connector Burning out

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I supposed it's obvious but I'd never given it any thought that you can get vehicle lights that are illegally bright. I looked at the Philips Ultinon X-treme and they are not road legal, I suppose the name is a clue.
Passed MOT ok, as have members of the car forum I also lurk on. I think new 2018 MOT regs more about HID bulbs in filament reflector. On an H4 HID bulb the single light source stays in the same ( totally wrong ) place in the reflector and uses a magnetic solenoid shutter to blank off or expose the arc. HID have a totally different reflector shape to filament bulbs and are normally found in projector style headlamps.
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Old 03-10-18, 11:57 AM   #22
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Default Re: K5 Pointy Headlight Connector Burning out

The standard Ultinon LED bulbs are fine, it's just some of the X-treme models that are not legal:
https://www.powerbulbs.com/store/cat...ltinon-led/all
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Old 03-10-18, 12:26 PM   #23
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Default Re: K5 Pointy Headlight Connector Burning out

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A motorcycle alternator runs at maximum output continuously (there are a few exceptions) - it has a permanent magnet rotor. The r/r takes what it needs and dumps the rest which is why they get hot, the more load that is placed on the alternator's power, the cooler the r/r will run. If you exceed the alternator's output by adding too many extras, the best that can happen is a flat battery, the worst is smoke.
I'd only add that the alternator output is proportional to how fast its being turned so the R/R has to get rid of more heat the higher the engine revs. Fortunately this usually corresponds to the bike going faster so theres more cooling air available
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Old 03-10-18, 01:39 PM   #24
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Default Re: K5 Pointy Headlight Connector Burning out

There appears to be some confusion about electrical behaviour here.
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Look good but Id like to know how much less current they draw than conventional bulbs because of course this difference in power consumption will now have to be dissipated in the reg/rec unit so possibly leading to an increase in its running temperature......
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on a twin headlight jobbie looks like about an extra 85w has to be continuously got rid of in the RR....
Nope, the reduced load will mean that the alternator won't produce the extra current at source. It's not the case that it will need to be lost in the R/R.


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A motorcycle alternator runs at maximum output continuously (there are a few exceptions) - it has a permanent magnet rotor. The r/r takes what it needs and dumps the rest which is why they get hot, ...
This is potentially confusing and only partly correct - we need to clarify what "output" is.
A vehicle alternator is NOT a fixed power output device. It essentially drives voltage output, which is dependent on magnetic field strength, number of coil turns and speed of rotation. Therefore, in permanent magnet (fixed field) alternators the only variable is engine speed.
However, current output is dependent on load demand (within rating - current rating is determined by the coil winding cross sectional area and thermal design of the alternator to get rid of coil losses.)
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the more load that is placed on the alternator's power, the cooler the r/r will run.
No. Heat is generated in R/R is primarily dealing with ac to dc conversion and managing over-voltage from the alternator, to keep max regulated output at c.14V. (A vehicle electrical system is supposed to be a constant voltage system.) It's generally to do with the type and configuration of semi-conductors in the R/R. Lower current load demand reduces heat generated in rectifying diodes while converting ac to dc.
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If you exceed the alternator's output by adding too many extras, the best that can happen is a flat battery, the worst is smoke.
Likely you will eventually burn out the R/R or the alternator coils, if you ignore earlier symptoms of poor operation.
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A car alternator has a field coil (instead of a permanent magnet) whose magnetic field strength can be adjusted to reduce the alternator's output when the demand is low. The early Hinckley Triumphs used a car style alternator but they are bulkier.
Some older Jap bikes also have wound field coils e.g. my 1987 Yamaha FZ600 has a slip ring rotor for field and a static stator for output, along with a 7-wire R/R rather than a simpler 5-wire design for SVs. It is true that reducing field strength is good for reducing voltage output. Current demand remains essentially a function of load though.
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Ideally, the high current devices should all be on relays so low power through the switch gear and the lights (for example) are on a separate, fused supply from the battery.
I agree it can be helpful to separate low power control circuits from high power load circuits using relays. Ultimately depends on the rating of the switchgear though. Motorcycle switchgear tends to be ok when new (hence why manufacturers don't add in the complexity of relays etc.), but soon suffers once any sort of real world deterioraton occurs. Hence older vehicles often struggle with poor operation or burning-out of electrical switches or connectors. Cleaning contacts regularly or adding better power wiring/relays is the only way to avoid future burn-out and replacement. (This is probably relevant to the principal enquiry from OP.)
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Old 03-10-18, 03:39 PM   #25
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Default Re: K5 Pointy Headlight Connector Burning out

The rectifier bit ( 3 phase ) produces heat due to voltage drop across diodes, which is a about 1volt per diode for silicon diode, this is independent of current passing through the diode, so heat produced stays pretty much constant. The output of the rectifier is unidirectional sine waves, not dc, because it has a ripple. The alternator output voltage rises as the load current drops, the regulators job is to try to keep voltage at around 14 volts it does this by drawing current from alternator, the resistance of alternator coils drops the output voltage, this clips the unidirectional sine waves and reduces ripple and produce a low ripple unidirectional voltage. As the alternator rotation speed increase the regulator has to work harder and absorb more current to keep voltage stable, this current causes more heat ( watts ) which is proportional to square of current. The resistance of alternator coils is constant so it needs a constant amount of current drawn to keep output voltage at required value, the more of this current is being drawn by devices ( bulbs, heated grips etc. ) the less current the regulator has to absorb. It is pretty crude but works.

As already posted a car system controls alternator voltage output and keeps it stable against load by reducing excitation of rotor coil, some bikes have this system but SV is not one of them
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Last edited by SV650rules; 03-10-18 at 03:44 PM.
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Old 03-10-18, 04:26 PM   #26
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Default Re: K5 Pointy Headlight Connector Burning out

its a haynes manual.. they are never fully right.

as for showing connectors within wiring diagrams then there are usually none. what suzuki do have a habit of is using parts bins for a number of bikes so the wiring is not always the same as the loom but its usually shown on the proper suzuki workshop manual.

having built a few power supplies in my time all i can say regarding R/R's i'm afraid its a case of buy cheep buy twice.
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Old 03-10-18, 05:10 PM   #27
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Default Re: K5 Pointy Headlight Connector Burning out

perhaps the diagram from the Suzuki manual will help. The output voltage from alternator changes with revs (the manual says 60vAC at 5000rpm is correct with it unplugged) this is changed when its rectified but its still too high to use in the bikes electrical system.
The three transistors in the diagram to the right of the bridge rectifier are controlled by the regulator to open sufficiently to allow some current to flow back to the alternator. This drops the output voltage of the alternator as it can only produce so much power (=volts x amps) and now more current is flowing. The transistors present a resistance and as Watts=amps x amps x resistance theres an increase in the power to dissipate as heat.
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Old 03-10-18, 10:08 PM   #28
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Default Re: K5 Pointy Headlight Connector Burning out

OK, another long post coming to challenge what I think is some mixed quality theory from others. (All intended to clarify understanding, please don't take offence.)

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The rectifier bit ( 3 phase ) produces heat due to voltage drop across diodes, which is a about 1volt per diode for silicon diode, ...
This is correct. The semi-conductor junction has a fixed volt drop.
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... this is independent of current passing through the diode, so heat produced stays pretty much constant. ...
This is not correct. Power consumed in a component is the product of voltage dropped and current through it. P=IV. Dropping 1V at 10A generates 10x the heat of dropping 1V at 1A. (If this is not the case, why are diodes manufactured and sold with different current/power ratings?)
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... The output of the rectifier is unidirectional sine waves, not dc, because it has a ripple. ...
Yes, technically correct, although the overlap effect of the 3 phases affects the low end shape of the ripple and the battery does a decent job of smoothing ripple due to its energy storage and release capability.
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... The alternator output voltage rises as the load current drops, the regulators job is to try to keep voltage at around 14 volts ...
Yes, although the voltage rise is only due to the internal resistance of the alternator winding, which is generally low compared to the load resistance.
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... it does this by drawing current from alternator, the resistance of alternator coils drops the output voltage, this clips the unidirectional sine waves and reduces ripple and produce a low ripple unidirectional voltage. As the alternator rotation speed increase the regulator has to work harder and absorb more current to keep voltage stable, this current causes more heat ( watts ) which is proportional to square of current. ...
Maybe, but none of this changes as a result of change in load, which is what the original assertion was about.

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... The resistance of alternator coils is constant so it needs a constant amount of current drawn to keep output voltage at required value, the more of this current is being drawn by devices ( bulbs, heated grips etc. ) the less current the regulator has to absorb.
Except the coil resistance is in series with the load, so the volt drop across the coil resistance varies according to load. Yes, this will affect the output voltage that the regulator has to deal with, resulting in higher voltage at lower load, but the effect is much reduced. The current the regulator has to absorb is a function of the over-voltage generated, not directly related to the load current.

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...It is pretty crude but works.

As already posted a car system controls alternator voltage output and keeps it stable against load by reducing excitation of rotor coil, some bikes have this system but SV is not one of them
Yes.

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Originally Posted by glang View Post
perhaps the diagram from the Suzuki manual will help. The output voltage from alternator changes with revs (the manual says 60vAC at 5000rpm is correct with it unplugged) this is changed when its rectified but its still too high to use in the bikes electrical system.
The three transistors in the diagram to the right of the bridge rectifier are controlled by the regulator to open sufficiently to allow some current to flow back to the alternator. This drops the output voltage of the alternator as it can only produce so much power (=volts x amps) ...
Those thyristors act as crude crowbars to short circuit across the generator, causing voltage drop because of the internal resistance of the alternator. They're on/off devices and connected parallel to the load, so they operate independently of load current.
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... and now more current is flowing. The transistors present a resistance and as Watts=amps x amps x resistance theres an increase in the power to dissipate as heat.
Don't confuse regulation current with load current. It's more about the (over)voltage that has to be dealt with. The internal resistance of the coils complicates the theory because both currents are superimposed through that, but that does not mean that any load current not "used" is absorbed by the R/R.


Having said all that, I think I may need to experiment! I'm feeling a bit rusty on both my theory and application.
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Old 03-10-18, 10:47 PM   #29
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Default Re: K5 Pointy Headlight Connector Burning out

I think were talking the same but theres something here I dont agree with:
Those thyristors act as crude crowbars to short circuit across the generator, causing voltage drop because of the internal resistance of the alternator. They're on/off devices and connected parallel to the load, so they operate independently of load current
Thyristors/transistors are not on/off devices but variable chokes that are controlled by the regulator depending on system voltage. As you then say the current they let through isnt absorbed by the R/R but generates heat as it passes through the transistors which must be dissipated to avoid damaging them.
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Old 04-10-18, 07:53 AM   #30
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Default Re: K5 Pointy Headlight Connector Burning out

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I think were talking the same but theres something here I dont agree with:
Those thyristors act as crude crowbars to short circuit across the generator, causing voltage drop because of the internal resistance of the alternator. They're on/off devices and connected parallel to the load, so they operate independently of load current
Thyristors/transistors are not on/off devices but variable chokes that are controlled by the regulator depending on system voltage. As you then say the current they let through isnt absorbed by the R/R but generates heat as it passes through the transistors which must be dissipated to avoid damaging them.

A basic thyristor is an on/off device - it can be triggered but will only turn on when it is forward biased, and it will not turn off until voltage across it drops to zero or goes reverse - an igbt thyristor can be turned off by removing gate supply at any time. a device that is in some conductive state other than fully on will dissipate a lot of heat - that is why square wave power supplies are more efficient - the switching device is either fully on or off.
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