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Old 13-01-22, 08:47 PM   #11
Ruffy
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Default Re: Smart Motorways

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Originally Posted by DJ123 View Post
...How many vehicles pass by on a Motorway in 17 minutes?!
A lot, obviously. I know you didn't ask it for this reason, but I think that's is part of the problem facing the statisticians when 'justifying' the principles of the design. The numbers of vehicles needing the hard shoulder (i.e. 'in trouble') are very, very low compared to the total number of journeys being made on 'live lanes'. So the case becomes pretty clear cut in relative terms, especially when the problem that needs to be solved is one of easing congestion and getting traffic flowing.

For example, how many times have you broken down over the years? I must have made hundreds of motorway journeys over the years, covering 10s of thousands of miles, yet I can only recall breaking down and needing a hard shoulder twice in over 15-20 years. If that's a typical rate then multiply it up for all road users and needing to provide space for the many that want to move becomes masively dominant over giving space to those few that can't?

Sadly, though, even a very, very low %age of serious accidents is still a significant number more than zero. And that really, really matters if you're one of those involved in those incidents. That's where the ethical perspectives get difficult - where to set the threshold of acceptability for the unpleasant outcomes: How many serious accidents or deaths are acceptable for the sake of free(ish)-flowing roads?
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Old 13-01-22, 08:47 PM   #12
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Default Re: Smart Motorways

How else should the congestion problem have been solved?
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Old 13-01-22, 11:11 PM   #13
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Default Re: Smart Motorways

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Originally Posted by ethariel View Post
Cons - No Hard Shoulder = freaking stupid beyond belief!


Nothing more needs saying this is absolutely the case I think.

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How else should the congestion problem have been solved?


By making the driving tests harder, so that people who aren't actually good and competent enough to drive don't get to drive. A set number of times you can take the test as well, so people don't just "learn to pass the test" as they appear to, to me now.
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Old 14-01-22, 07:33 PM   #14
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Default Re: Smart Motorways

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How else should the congestion problem have been solved?
By educating drivers how to properly drive on a road in a manner that creates flowing traffic.

Drive in the correct lane - unless over taking be as far left as possible
Lane hogging - increases congestion by reducing the capacity available for traffic flow
Tail gating - continuous braking causes pointless & needless tail backs
Plan ahead - be in the correct lane for your slip road/motorway split

The majority of congestion on multilane carriageways is caused by selfish idiots. Unfortunately i live near the M3/M4 & M25 all of which have had extensive work to increase the number of lanes.
The result? the same congestion there was before.
Why? Because idiots still refuse to drive in the left hand lane, refuse to pay attention to the signage provided for junctions, and don't acknowledge mirrors exist and they need to GTF out the way after their overtake is complete.
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Old 14-01-22, 08:55 PM   #15
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Default Re: Smart Motorways

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Originally Posted by chris8886 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
How else should the congestion problem have been solved?
By making the driving tests harder, so that people who aren't actually good and competent enough to drive don't get to drive. A set number of times you can take the test as well, so people don't just "learn to pass the test" as they appear to, to me now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ123 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
How else should the congestion problem have been solved?
By educating drivers how to properly drive on a road in a manner that creates flowing traffic.

Drive in the correct lane - unless over taking be as far left as possible
Lane hogging - increases congestion by reducing the capacity available for traffic flow
Tail gating - continuous braking causes pointless & needless tail backs
Plan ahead - be in the correct lane for your slip road/motorway split

The majority of congestion on multilane carriageways is caused by selfish idiots. Unfortunately i live near the M3/M4 & M25 all of which have had extensive work to increase the number of lanes.
The result? the same congestion there was before.
Why? Because idiots still refuse to drive in the left hand lane, refuse to pay attention to the signage provided for junctions, and don't acknowledge mirrors exist and they need to GTF out the way after their overtake is complete.
It seems we agree on something here.

As I said before:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruffy View Post
... the main problem is the behaviours and expectations of road users...

I'm also supportive of refresher tests (to be taken every 5 years, perhaps) to retain driving licence entitlement.

However, I'm less certain that, even with effectively taking 'incompetents' off the road, there won't still be too many vehicles for the roads we have (especially at peak times) and so we we will still need another solution for congestion. Maybe somebody in power sufficiently brave to tackle our 'car/HGV culture' and say "tough, that's your lot - queue as traffic or try another time or another form of transport!". Alongside license competence reforms, I'd accept the roads money being spent solely on junction upgrades, small new link roads and surfacing instead of lengthy new lane upgrades
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Old 17-01-22, 03:51 PM   #16
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Default Re: Smart Motorways

Even the roadside recovery services with their orange strobes are reluctant to go to callouts on smart motorways, they have to contact the motorway controller to put an 'X' above the lane ( LOL ), and even the Police with their flashing blue lights are hesitant to stop - so what chance does the average vehicle stand. IIRC when the inside lane is open to 'live running' LOL the speed limit on whole motorway section is reduced to 40... which is the very, very minimum you would expect. There is a parliamentary selct committee been looking at smart motorways for a while now, saw a meeting of it on TV, and TBH the MP's were giving the civil servants 'experts' from Dept of Transport a real hard time about the safety. By the time the Police / roadside services fine out about a breakdown and until they get there can be a good 30 mins or more. They tried using automatic Radar to detect stopped vehicles, it has never really worked, depends on weather, false echoes etc. I smart motorways are a cheap and nasty way to increase capacity. Many sections of M6 are raised so hard to widen them. My bro said years ago why didn't the motorway builders leave extra room on the 'inside' of motorways, which meant extra lanes could have been added without affecting bridges etc.
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Last edited by SV650rules; 17-01-22 at 04:00 PM.
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